Is there such a thing as a FWD (front-wheel drive) sportscar? - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
View Poll Results: Can Front-wheel Drive cars be sportscars?
Yes 193 46.28%
No 85 20.38%
H#ll no! 139 33.33%
Voters: 417. You may not vote on this poll

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post #41 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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post #42 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 06:21 PM
 
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hell yes!!!! the MK1 Rabbit GTI is a sports car..... it just happens to have a trunk
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post #43 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 07:18 PM
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BMW Mini
VW Golf GTI
Ford Focus SVT

2009 Mini Cooper JCW - Dark Silver/Black - sport suspension/cold weather package
2008 997 GT3 - Carrara White/Black - PCCB's - 350 lbs of weight reduction

Past Lotus Cars: 2005 NFB Elise, 2007 CO Exige S, 2005 AR Elise, 2008 CO Exige S 240
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post #44 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
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Eh? BMW's are BMW's and Minis are Minis. Just because Proton owns Lotus doesn't mean you drive a Proton Elise, that's stretching it... and sorry since they're all FWD, I'm going to go with sporty models of Econoboxes as opposed to straight up sportscar.
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post #45 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05EliseNM
BMW Mini (Cooper S?)
VW Golf GTI
Ford Focus SVT
All sport-hatches. None sports cars.



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post #46 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 01:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transio
All sport-hatches. None sports cars.
I actually agree there.

One of my tests for these threads is whether the car is a sporting variant of a non-sports car (See BMW Mini One/Cooper, VW Golf non-GTI/R32, Ford Focus non-SVT/ST/RS). The M100 is the only car that I know of that passes all of the tests, but the 1989 (IIRC) Dodge Daytona IMSA FWD is another example. It passes this specific test, by virtue of being a tube-framed racer that had very little connection to a production Daytona, but it's a race car (debate whether that's a sports car goes elsewhere, m'kay? ).

But, the ITR comes damn close. Shame it's based on the Civic (and lower model Integras), or it would pass that test, too.
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post #47 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 03:34 AM
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The M100 broke the mold and really is the only car I can think of that qualifies as a FWD sports car. Their are other fwd sport coupes and GT's but not sports cars. I hate to say it but the Mercury/ Ford Capri for the late 80's early 90's almost qualifies but wasn't any good. I guess that spurs another question. Are we discussing "good fwd sports cars" or sjust attempts to build fwd sports cars (like the capri)?
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post #48 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05EliseNM
BMW Mini
VW Golf GTI
Ford Focus SVT
It all depends on your own personal definition of a sports car. Mine does not include the shape of a car or the number of doors. Front drive does matter, but it can still be a sports car in my book. A sports car to me is about driving. As I once stated before, here is my criteria for judging a car, and to me would be the same criteria that makes a car a "sports" car:

fun to drive factor
overall feel of machine (how well the parts work and how well they work together)
cornering/handling ability
acceleration
top speed
.
.
.
.
.
looks


I know of many cars that look much sportier than the 3 cars I posted, but do not measure up to the overall abilities of these cars.

2009 Mini Cooper JCW - Dark Silver/Black - sport suspension/cold weather package
2008 997 GT3 - Carrara White/Black - PCCB's - 350 lbs of weight reduction

Past Lotus Cars: 2005 NFB Elise, 2007 CO Exige S, 2005 AR Elise, 2008 CO Exige S 240
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post #49 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-07-2006, 09:24 PM
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Why don't you just call all these threads "Can another car still be a sports car if it doesn't fit the mold that I made up so that my car does count?"

I still don't even see the point. Just because its not a "sports" car doesn't keep it from attaining the goals that the driver has in mind. There are plenty of cars out there that you guys dismiss, that would knock your socks off in some form of competition.
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post #50 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-07-2006, 09:49 PM
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Good points Westrock. The Elan of the 90's outhandled the same era Esprit; even rumoured (Lotus keeps a lot of stuff top secret)to have had the fastest lap time around the Hethel test track for any street car that Lotus made during that era, with F1 driver John Miles at the wheel.
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post #51 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-07-2006, 09:52 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry Westrock, most people here don't believe there is such a thing as a FWD sportscar, and with good reason. It's not just a mold that *I* made up. It's a pretty commonly held concept.

I realize that Neon SRT-4s are faster than regular Neon's but they're just ratcheted up versions of Dodge's lowest level car, not a true sportscar like the Dodge Viper.
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post #52 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-07-2006, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brgm100
Good points Westrock. The Elan of the 90's outhandled the same era Esprit; even rumoured (Lotus keeps a lot of stuff top secret)to have had the fastest lap time around the Hethel test track for any street car that Lotus made during that era, with F1 driver John Miles at the wheel.
I respect the M100, but if they were soo great, why aren't there any FWD Lotus cars today? (I don't think there were any before either.)
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post #53 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-08-2006, 12:24 AM
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Because GM dumped Lotus due to the recession in the early '90's. GM commissioned Lotus in the mid '80's to develop an entry level sports car that would cost in the mid 20's, and put enormous resources and money into the Elan project. Unfortunately cost overruns (the Elan interior and convertible roof design alone cost more than entire previous Lotus production lines)and delays killed the Elan.

Lotus was in dire straights and needed to produce a car that was relatively inexpensive to make. The S1 Elise cost a fraction per unit, compared to the Elan,in part to its relatively simple design plus the fact that it was not intended for the US market, saving Lotus the costs of federalization ($$$). Thus the Elise "saved" Lotus.

There were rumors of future developments for the Elan, including an AWD version; what might have been.

Had the Elan come out years sooner with its initial target price in the mid 20's as opposed to the final price in the 40k price range, the story might have been different. Nobody was going to pay that kind of cash for a fwd car (rightfully so).

Look at a lot of the rwd performance cars today; they are saddled with all sorts of safety features to keep the driver from getting in to too much trouble. The Elan had none of those (not even abs). The Elise was only allowed in the US by way of financial hardship waivers granted by the DOT. Whether this will save the Lotus over here, we shall see.

As an aside, GM has always experimented with fwd cars that in no way could be construed as econoboxes. The '60's Toronado comes to mind . Not suprising that GM also owns Saab, a carmaker that has been committed to fwd since its inception.
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post #54 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-08-2006, 05:18 AM
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You've got to be kidding! Are there actually people out there who think that the regular BMW Mini is a sports car? That's hilarious - those Madison Ave execs can trick anyone...

If you believe that, perhaps you'll be interested in buying my mid-90's Saturn coupe "sports car." It has two doors, it's red and high school girls love it so it must be a sports car!!!!!
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post #55 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-08-2006, 06:01 AM
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The Audi TT (non-quattro version of course).

What say you Transio?

Nathan
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post #56 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-09-2006, 02:46 PM
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You could say that anything that was meant to be sporty is a sports car. But the fact would still remain that many of those don't do all that well at the "sports" part...either in a subjective sense, an objective sense, or both.

I would love to see the source of the rumor that the M100 Elan was faster than the Esprit at anything other than a straight slalom. Just to see how these nutty ideas get started...

2005 S2000 #42as
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post #57 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-10-2006, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhlypSide
Sorry Westrock, most people here don't believe there is such a thing as a FWD sportscar, and with good reason. It's not just a mold that *I* made up. It's a pretty commonly held concept.

I realize that Neon SRT-4s are faster than regular Neon's but they're just ratcheted up versions of Dodge's lowest level car, not a true sportscar like the Dodge Viper.
I don't disagree, but again whats the point? I don't take anything away from a Viper. But I can't afford a Viper (to own or modify). And if I encounter one on the highway and just so happen to beat him in straight speed, then what difference did anything make?

Now if the fact that Lotus only makes true sports cars makes you happy, then that in an of itself is fine. But don't get cocky on the road just because the other guys car isn't the same "type" as yours. That doesn't stop anything.

And again it matters also what your purpose is. Here in the Midwest of the United States we just have miles and miles of flat straight roads. So most of us settle for raw power which just about any car type can handle. If you live somewhere with actual mountains then you need something that is agile, and small & compact with low CG and predictable power is better suited. Neither situation is better then the other. It would be like Texans saying California homes are worthless because they don't have air conditioners, which is true for us but not true in Cali.

And this is not because I have a FWD car. Although there are certain cars I will spend my money on, I have no discrimination against "admiring" other cars and seeing thier plus's and minus's.
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post #58 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-10-2006, 02:06 PM
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I would say no for FWD being a sport car. Usually if the fwd car is sporty at all it's a hatch, has 4 seats etc. The old soneet is probably as close as you could get to a FWD sports car but in rescent years there isn't anything out there.

With understeer of fwd cars, awd also understeers quite bad & with all cars, there are simple fixes to allow the car to be more neutral or oversteer. My fwd track car is setup for oversteer

it's true, a srt-4 is just a fancy neon just like a wrx/sti is a expensive impreza or a evo8 is a overpriced lancer. Then look at the viper which was a mix of truck parts

Someone mentioned the Acura legen & it's engine/trans being mounted behind the front wheels to reduce torque steer & improve weight dist. However the trans/motor are installed equal length drive shafts are the best way to minimize torque steer. My FWD car has the motor/trans sitting partially in front of the drive shafts. My engine sits front to back & has equal drive shafts which minimiza torque steer. I think a lot of the reason acura's & most other n/a japanese cars do not have torque steer is because they do not have much torque.
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post #59 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-10-2006, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westrock
I don't disagree, but again whats the point? I don't take anything away from a Viper. But I can't afford a Viper (to own or modify). And if I encounter one on the highway and just so happen to beat him in straight speed, then what difference did anything make?

Now if the fact that Lotus only makes true sports cars makes you happy, then that in an of itself is fine. But don't get cocky on the road just because the other guys car isn't the same "type" as yours. That doesn't stop anything.

And again it matters also what your purpose is. Here in the Midwest of the United States we just have miles and miles of flat straight roads. So most of us settle for raw power which just about any car type can handle. If you live somewhere with actual mountains then you need something that is agile, and small & compact with low CG and predictable power is better suited. Neither situation is better then the other. It would be like Texans saying California homes are worthless because they don't have air conditioners, which is true for us but not true in Cali.

And this is not because I have a FWD car. Although there are certain cars I will spend my money on, I have no discrimination against "admiring" other cars and seeing thier plus's and minus's.
Spoken like someone who cannot truly appreciate nor understand what it's like driving something actually designed to perform.

Straight flat roads? LOL! High horsepower FWD cars suck there too because the weight transfer during standing starts pulls the car up off of it's drive (the front) wheels. We all know the fastest cars in the NHRA are all FWD as a result right? Especially since NHRA tracks are curvy and have lots of elevation changes

Keep telling yourself that we're getting "cocky" about what cars we drive, but make no mistake this is not a "Do you admire FWD cars" thread, the only positive respondents to such a thread probably would be "powered by Nike" or not have a license.

I do know that FWD cars definitely get it done like nobody's business for all the busy soccer moms and little sisters of the world or perhaps for those driving "soulless" amongst us who only buy cars to get from point A to point B. >=P

Honestly, I think the general buying public has been fooled into thinking "sporty" FWD cars are sportscars, when they're really not. The point of the thread isn't "no, you can't like FWD cars", it's "Can there be FWD sportscars"?
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post #60 of 628 (permalink) Old 12-10-2006, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westrock
I don't disagree, but again whats the point? I don't take anything away from a Viper. But I can't afford a Viper (to own or modify). And if I encounter one on the highway and just so happen to beat him in straight speed, then what difference did anything make? ....
I forgot to add... so you strapped a rocket to a skateboard and "killed" a Viper. You know the truly sad thing? At the end of the day, you'll still be driving a Neon, a nice(r) Neon, but a Neon nonetheless.

The guy with the Viper (who probably wasn't even trying), well he'll have a sportscar, and a legendary one at that.

Amateur drag racing is racing with your wallet, he who spends the most $$$ almost always wins. Spending money is not a skill, and it's certainly wouldn't be an impressive "skill" if it were one.
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