Buying a 430 in the states - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #41 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-18-2018, 04:22 PM
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You I suppose lol.
You are arguing with me? I made a joke at the expense of the GT430 pricing on the 1st page. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

Lets all agree the 570S is the overall better car so jlobo941 doesn't have to keep responding telling us how amazing the 570S is.
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post #42 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-18-2018, 06:10 PM
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You are arguing with me? I made a joke at the expense of the GT430 pricing on the 1st page. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

Lets all agree the 570S is the overall better car so jlobo941 doesn't have to keep responding telling us how amazing the 570S is. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forums/images/LotusTalk_2015/smilies/tango_face_devil.png[/IMG]
Yes, you misrepresented my argument as a $90k Evora vs a $220k 570s instead of a $160k Evora vs a $189k 570s. That's all I was saying, and I do accept your forfeiture 😉
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post #43 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 04:28 PM
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I have driven the 570S at pace.. in corners and slightly bumpy roads. It is a very nervous car. It has a quick motor, but the suspension is nowhere near the stock Evora S1 .. let alone the 400s. There is a reason you don't see many of them at track days - The Mclaren sports series is not meant for serious track use. In fact, they don't publish suspension settings and instructions for track use.
We might be conflating what track car is in this discussion. What is needed to make a few good drag strip runs (where a tune helps) is not the same as driving a car on a road course for a couple of hours in 90+ degree weather without drama - and you don't want to be messing too much with tunes. Different use cases. The availability of adjustable suspension is a good indicator of how the manufacturer has positioned the car. The apt comparison for the 430GT is the 675LT or maybe the 570GT4; the 570 should be compared with the 400 - which are both street cars.
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post #44 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 04:39 PM
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I have driven the 570S at pace.. in corners and slightly bumpy roads. It is a very nervous car. It has a quick motor, but the suspension is nowhere near the stock Evora S1 .. let alone the 400s. There is a reason you don't see many of them at track days - The Mclaren sports series is not meant for serious track use. In fact, they don't publish suspension settings and instructions for track use.
We might be conflating what track car is in this discussion. What is needed to make a few good drag strip runs (where a tune helps) is not the same as driving a car on a road course for a couple of hours in 90+ degree weather without drama - and you don't want to be messing too much with tunes. Different use cases. The availability of adjustable suspension is a good indicator of how the manufacturer has positioned the car. The apt comparison for the 430GT is the 675LT or maybe the 570GT4; the 570 should be compared with the 400 - which are both street cars.
I'll give you that, I've never driven the 570 on the track, but I do agree it feels "nervous," but nervous to me in the way a raw, overpowered, death trap, feels, which I like.
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post #45 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 08:21 PM
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I currently own both a 2017 McLaren 570S and a 2011 NA 6SP Evora, hot hodded with a full Header System, wider wheels and tires, and other modifications.
I bought both cars NEW, and Love BOTH cars. They are very similar in many ways, and different in others.

The "Curb Weight" of the 570S at 3,186 vs 3,120 Evora 400 are very comparable.
The 570S is 178.3"L, 82.5"W, 47.3H, while the Evora 400 is 173"L, 73"W, 48"H
The obvious difference is the 562HP of the 570S, vs 345 for the Evora S or 400+ for the Evora 400 / 410 / 430.
As noted in many reviews, the Stock 570S is WAY under-tired with 225-35-19 and 285-35-20 tires, while the Evora 400 has 235-35-19 and 285-30-20 tires. (My Evora has 235-35-19 and 275-35-19 tires.)

I have driven my 570S, my NA Evora, AND the Evora 400 on spirited drives on back country roads.
My experience is that the handling seems similar between the Evora(s) and the 570, other than that the 570S launches out of the corners MUCH faster. I have sensed NO nervousness in the 570S in the corners. On very twisty roads, my 570S feels a little larger, probably mostly due to the width.
I tend to drive my Evora more on spirited tight and twisty back country drives, but always wish for the 570S's HP.
I have NOT driven either car on the track, since I have a purpose track Sports Racer race car. I have had an SCCA National License, have raced since 1975, and I have well over 1,000 laps around Laguna Seca in a race car.
So, I can say that Randy Pobst certainly looks comfortable and quick around Laguna in a Stock 570S. I don't see any nervousness, and a 1:34.5 is pretty quick, especially with those stock tires.
I could not find a lap around Laguna in an Evora 400, but this lap in an Evora S might reflect some of the Evora's handling characteristics. It is by the SAME driver, Randy Pobst. (PLEASE don't point out the glaring error of comparing an Evora 400 to an S; I get that.)

Addressing some of the other points mentioned in this thread.
New McLaren 570S's are frequently deeply discounted by the dealers. So, unless you are special ordering a "Build", you rarely pay MSRP. I paid WAY under MSRP for my NEW 570S.
570 discounts - Page 7 - McLaren Life
The exterior fit and finish of the 570S is a little better than the Evora, and the interior is somewhat more refined, but the Iris head unit in the 570S is far inferior to my Evora's aftermarket Kenwood.
McLaren also uses Velcro and Double Sided tape to secure trim pieces, and there are many build complaints similar to the Evora.
The 570S requires an Annual Service of fluid changes, etc. I have not faced that yet, but it is supposed to be around $1K the 1st year, and more in subsequent years. It looks like the 570S is more of a "bring it to the daeler for service" car than the Evora, which can be a DIY car for most maintenance. So, I expect the maintenance costs for the 570S to be considerably more than an Evora.

So, I'm NOT hyping either car. They are BOTH terrific cars that each have their own pluses and minuses.
I'm keeping both, despite my jammed garage.
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post #46 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 09:11 PM
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@ Bobsy Racer, thanks for your views, owning both cars at the same time gives a great insight.

I know here in the Gulf, the 430 is coming - maybe next month, both Evora & Exige versions. As GGC spec is a mix of both EU / Federal spec & we're a small market volume (Saudi, Oman, Bahrain etc have no Lotus dealers) I'm guessing North America will get the Evora 430 too. Lotus in North America only have the Evora as a road car to sell, so can't rely on Elise / Exige / 3-Eleven sales to achieve their targets.

From TLF / SELOC forum chat, most Evora 430's to-date seem to have been bought in the UK. Compared to the UK's initial allocation (20 units?) other markets have not bought their expected volumes, so their shortfall is being diverted to the UK.

Based on UK pricing (+/- 130k inc options inc VAT) the Federal Evora would be +/- $150k exc tax. EU pricing tends to be higher than the UK after currency is considered. The base list price is marketeering - who buys a car like this without AC, ICE, NVH insulation ? Its not a track car. Not sure about discounts off list, as initial 430 orders seem to be built to customers spec.

McLaren are definitely trying to dance faster than the music here in the Gulf, list prices means little, stocks of unused older models are knocking around, very spec sensitive - the more carbon / MSO the better it seems. A friend bought an unused, fully MSO'd 650S last year for a silly low price.

Given how late the Evora is in its life cycle & the 430's likely pricing Vs the market choice, Lotus would be smart to make a small batch of Evora 430, so they are considered as rare collector cars like the GTE. Higher volumes will push the buying decision beyond pure emotion & could be counter productive.

Finally, buying Vs running are two very different things. The Evora is super simple compared to rivals, DIY is possible, hell you could pick-up most the service parts from your local Toyota dealer. Even beyond the main drivetrain, a little searching allows you to find a direct source for the parts-bin. I wouldn't want to run a McLaren without a warranty - the whole car is bespoke, which along with their pre/post track inspection policy, means you're welded to the dealer.

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post #47 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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I just want something like the 400 ish, without the current front end. Looked at a couple of 400 today at dealer and it’s a neat car but can’t get past that front end. Imho the 400 is a step down from the first gen Evora in the front and interior. Performance wise she’s better though.

Always considered a Lotus the “poor man’s McLaren”. Or the McLaren as the “rich man’s Lotus”. I follow McLaren Life daily, that 570 is on my radar. The styling and performace years ahead of our cars. Could scarcely do the Lotus when she approaches the 570 regardless of carbon fibre etc.

The next gen Lotus Evora I want will be about $120K. Not a load of carbon and aero and stuff only useful on the edge on track.

Anyone can make something complicated. It takes genius to make it simple. Einstein.
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post #48 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 10:03 PM Thread Starter
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Got this today

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Anyone can make something complicated. It takes genius to make it simple. Einstein.
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post #49 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 04:35 AM
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BTW for history's sake, that 2011 that Pobst tested was with GROSSLY inappropriate tire pressures and I discussed this directly with Randy at LRP in 2012. They, foolishly started with placard pressures (35/38) so hot pressures were ridiculous at like 43/48 thus the reason it did so poorly. HUGE MISTAKE BY LOTUS!!!!! 30-32/33-34 IS THE SWEET SPOT and would have knocked off a couple seconds/lap!

This is one reason why the 400 pressures are now 29/32! and I intend to try those as hot pressures this summer to see if once again a Lotus tire placard is a hint at ideal hot pressures just like the Elise!

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post #50 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 04:55 AM
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My 400 happens to be a gearshift car, and so is my supercharged 997S, and my little mini coopers S, my 4C and 430 are not. Having owned many high end Italian cars (including gearshift 360 & 430), the F1 in the 430 is a better match for the power band. I have been following Geely for two years (bought and sold 10's of thousands of shares over 20 times), they are clever (bought up large share of Mercedes parent company), and they have plans for Lotus, that I'm sure of. I expect they will follow Porsche's path, first a SUV, and make as many versions of the Evora as they can. They will need an entry level car (my guess a light weight convertible in the 60K range. I have driven the 570 and the 720, and sorry folks but they in another league. I was just allotted a build spot for a 488 coupe, not sure yet whether I am going to take it. I am getting older and it is likely way more car than I need these days. But I never had a white Ferrari, and the 488 looks good in white. I also expect there will be a dealer shakeup over the next couple years, Lotus knows they cannot get where they want to be with the network they have now.
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post #51 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-20-2018, 09:42 AM
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I have driven the 570 and the 720, and sorry folks but they in another league.
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The Evora is God's chariot, you'll pay for your blasphemy!
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post #52 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 05:11 AM
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I have driven the 570 and the 720, and sorry folks but they in another league.
No need to say you're sorry. The only person who claimed this was the strawman "jlobo941" constructed.
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post #53 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 05:21 AM
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I have driven the 570 and the 720, and sorry folks but they in another league.
No need to say you're sorry. The only person who claimed this was the strawman "jlobo941" constructed.
Claimed what exactly?
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post #54 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 12:51 PM
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You I suppose lol. I don't think you read my previous posts. I was comparing the $160k 430, to the $189k base 570s, and I even went as far as to say a new 400 picked up for less than $90k is a fine choice compared to a 570. Half the car at half the price.
You still haven't provided a scintilla of evidence (objective or subjective) that the McLaren 570S is twice the car that the base 400 is (let alone the 430). To be clear, you didn't say better. You said the Mac was twice as good. Which it clearly isn't.

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post #55 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 01:08 PM
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Evora GT430 vs M4 GTS (MSRP 121,770)

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post #56 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 01:44 PM
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You I suppose lol. I don't think you read my previous posts. I was comparing the $160k 430, to the $189k base 570s, and I even went as far as to say a new 400 picked up for less than $90k is a fine choice compared to a 570. Half the car at half the price.
You still haven't provided a scintilla of evidence (objective or subjective) that the McLaren 570S is twice the car that the base 400 is (let alone the 430). To be clear, you didn't say better. You said the Mac was twice as good. Which it clearly isn't.
You've driven a 570?
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post #57 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 01:50 PM
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You've driven a 570?
How is that relevant? I didn't claim that the 570S is twice the car the 430 is. You did. Yet you've yet to provide any evidence to back up that claim. Does it accelerate twice as fast? Is it twice as fast around a lap? Does it have twice the grip or twice the steering feel/feedback? Does it provide twice the driving experience?

I'm willing to concede (for the sake of argument) that the 570S is the better car. But twice as good. Please. That doesn't pass the laugh test.

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post #58 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 01:59 PM
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You've driven a 570?
How is that relevant? I didn't claim that the 570S is twice the car the 430 is. You did. Yet you've yet to provide any evidence to back up that claim. Does it accelerate twice as fast? Is it twice as fast around a lap? Does it have twice the grip or twice the steering feel/feedback? Does it provide twice the driving experience?

I'm willing to concede (for the sake of argument) that the 570S is the better car. But twice as good. Please. That doesn't pass the laugh test.
It's completely relevant, as any opinion of any car is completely subjective. I at least have had the experience of driving several examples of each from which to form my opinion, you haven't. If you said you drove both, and said the Evora was better, I wouldn't argue, it's your opinion. That being said, some people think a Prius is twice the car as the Evora for fuel economy alone, and that brings me to my next point. If you're going to weigh every word I say down to the nanogram, then you'd better at least weigh the right words. I never said twice as good, I said twice the car. Completely subjective statement, developed as a proud Evora owner, given the privilege to spend quality time with a few super cars.

...all I'm saying is I'd probably caution against finding people's informed, subjective, opinions on things "laughable," or worse, conceding to part of their opinion for the "sake of argument" without... dare I be so bold to say... a scintilla of experience?

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post #59 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 09:37 PM
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Evora GT430 vs M4 GTS (MSRP 121,770)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTCMfnHcUTI
i didn't see the lap times.

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post #60 of 405 (permalink) Old 05-22-2018, 12:38 PM
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It's completely relevant, as any opinion of any car is completely subjective. I at least have had the experience of driving several examples of each from which to form my opinion, you haven't. If you said you drove both, and said the Evora was better, I wouldn't argue, it's your opinion. That being said, some people think a Prius is twice the car as the Evora for fuel economy alone, and that brings me to my next point. If you're going to weigh every word I say down to the nanogram, then you'd better at least weigh the right words. I never said twice as good, I said twice the car. Completely subjective statement, developed as a proud Evora owner, given the privilege to spend quality time with a few super cars.

...all I'm saying is I'd probably caution against finding people's informed, subjective, opinions on things "laughable," or worse, conceding to part of their opinion for the "sake of argument" without... dare I be so bold to say... a scintilla of experience?
As the logicians say, the burden of proof is on the person who makes a claim. You made an unsupportable claim and have provided not a scintilla of evidence to support it. But it's good to know that your opinion that the 570 is twice the car is totally subjective. Which means we can all disregard it.

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