Clutch MC failure question - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
 5Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: FL
Posts: 19
Clutch MC failure question

My '14 S with 23k miles is on its third clutch MC, with the previous owner having replaced the first two under warranty. About two weeks ago after some hot weather driving, I wound up getting caught by the "clutch pedal isn't returning from the floor" issue. After the car cooled and I poked at it for a bit, it went back to almost normal. I ordered an aftermarket one from BOE to fix it once and for all.

Fast forward to today, and I get a call from the dealer telling me they flushed and bled it, that the MC is never an issue, and they've only replaced a single one since the car was released back in 2010. They refuse to make a warranty claim with Fidelity on this issue.

In your opinions does this sound like a failing MC and a dealer that's full of it, or is needing the clutch hydraulics bled and flushed often a common issue?
fnord is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 09:17 AM
Registered User
 
agentdr8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: NorCal, CA
Posts: 1,075
Garage
Dealers lie/cheat/steal, which is why they're known as "stealers". That may or may not be the case here, but just because they don't have any direct experience with the OEM m/cs failing doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.

Since it sounds like you have an extended warranty with Fidelity, I would contact them and explain the situation. You may have to have a different shop perform the work if the stealer is unwilling.

Flushing the m/c/brake lines will usually bring it back to life temporarily, but it'll just happen again. The OE units just aren't made well, and don't seem to tolerate heat as much as they should. The aftermarket units are much better made, and fully rebuildable from the interior side, so the clam should never have to come off again* for a failing m/c seal.





* there are some reports that claim the m/c can be changed without removing the clam, but no one has produced any photo evidence of this, so YMMV

2011 Evora NA - Phantom Black | Paprika | MT | 2+.5
agentdr8 is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: FL
Posts: 19
Thanks, I've had several other issues with that dealership and just called Fidelity, and they said it's fine if I bring it elsewhere... now if I can just find a decent shop in NE Florida I'll be set. I'm planning on heading up to Tail of the Dragon in a few weeks, and I'm hoping I have it all sorted by then.

As for the no-clam removal MC replacement, I've also heard that rumor. I may not have pictures of the work, but I do have the previous owner's service records and in them a shop in Scottsdale claims they did it through the wheel wells. Invoice image here: https://i.imgur.com/KPsDBpf.jpg
fnord is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 10:02 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: NYC
Posts: 459
I agree. bleeding the MC will only be a temp fix. My car had this issue while I was under warranty. they bled it multiple times. when I was out I ended up paying for it to be replaced...

Incase I'm asking for help with something: 2011 Evora N/A C/R 6sp with BOE TVS 1900 S/C kit
John Z is online now  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 10:06 AM
Registered User
 
4380r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,475
During the first year the Evoras were on the market in the US, I had my Exige in the local dealership for some minor warranty work. Was talking to the tech working on the car, noticing that there were a couple Evoras up on the lift, I asked him if they're doing a lot of work on them already. He said that several they'd sold had come back with MC problems.

Owned, loved, enjoyed, and now gone:
1969 Europa S2 Blue
1970 Europa S2 White
1974 Europa Twin Cam Blue
1974 Europa Twin Cam Blue
1984 Turbo Esprit Calypso Red
2005 Elise Starlight Black
2005 Elise Saffron Yellow
2005 Elise Ardent Red
2006 Exige Graphite Grey
2007 Exige Canyon Red

Other:
1970 MGB GT
1970 Datsun 510
1984 Honda CRX Si
1984 Pontiac Fiero
2004 Chrysler Crossfire
2009 Pontiac Solstice Coupe
4380r is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 10:11 AM
Registered User
 
Mobius97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,391
Nope it is failing and that is BS from the dealer. Mine failed and was replaced under warranty. I also have Fidelity and it was replaced without question. This is a known and common failure with Evoras. Lotus even had a "quick fix" TSB by wrapping the line near the cats. Even with the TSB performed, mine still failed. On an OEM one still but if it does fail again I'll be going with one of the aftermarket ones.

2005 Elise- Katana II Supercharged and other fun bits
2011 Evora - Daily Driver
Mobius97 is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 11:56 AM
Maniacal Motorist
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 30
Super Important !!

If you already have the aftermarket replacement MC:

I got my MC from GRP/Wilwood. It came with a plastic adapter plate to connect the MC to the pedal box. The load transfer from the pedal to the MC caused a flexion load, and the plastic failed after a relatively short time. If your pedal doesn’t return upward at this juncture, I’d say the MC is possibly fully separated from the pedal box.

I think Tilton is the supplier for BOE, but check out that possibility of design deficiency. I ended up getting a new piece from GRP, made from aluminum.

Last edited by Bizjet Guy; 09-11-2019 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Autocorrect correction
Bizjet Guy is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-11-2019, 02:22 PM
Registered User
 
brgelise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 6,123
Clutch goes to floor from excessive heat it is as simple as sticking foot under pedal to allow refill. I've done it countless times after track sessions on 90 degree days....even with high temp fluids.

16 Maserati GranTurismo Sport Ext Campio /Grigio Chronos w/full MC Carbon Fiber interior trim, Stock for now
18 Alfa Romeo Stelvio Visconti Verde/Brown Leather Remus Catback,Eurocompulsion Phase 2 V2 intake, 390HP/443ft-lb Tq!
16 Range Rover Sport HSE, Montalcino Red w/Ivory Leather-[/COLOR]- 456HP/412ft-lb Tq
12 Maxda MX-5 Miata GT PRHT True Red/Black leather
11 Lotus Evora "S" Persian Blue, Grey/Black Suedetex/Leather
brgelise is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 11:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: CT
Posts: 533
I don't agree with most of the sentiment above, if you haven't flushed the clutch fluid and applied a quality heat wrap you're going to have issues. It's brake fluid in a hot environment, it should be flushed annually with the brakes. My MY11 metal MC pedal was a bit droopy when I got the car, RBF600 or RBF660 fluid and DEI Fire Wrap took care of the problem.

At a minimum, give the dealer repair a chance, if you feel the pedal is still an issue go back and push for MC replacement.
brgelise likes this.
Snowphun is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 11:40 AM
Registered User
 
brgelise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 6,123
Let's think for a minute. The heat is in the rear causing the trouble, esp with folks that have not performed proper maintenance by bleeding annually. The MC is up front and supposedly is the cause....there is no heat to be concerned about up front. I question how many MC's actually did fail in the first place!! Its all about the line near the exhaust manifold and the clutch solenoid getting roasted.

16 Maserati GranTurismo Sport Ext Campio /Grigio Chronos w/full MC Carbon Fiber interior trim, Stock for now
18 Alfa Romeo Stelvio Visconti Verde/Brown Leather Remus Catback,Eurocompulsion Phase 2 V2 intake, 390HP/443ft-lb Tq!
16 Range Rover Sport HSE, Montalcino Red w/Ivory Leather-[/COLOR]- 456HP/412ft-lb Tq
12 Maxda MX-5 Miata GT PRHT True Red/Black leather
11 Lotus Evora "S" Persian Blue, Grey/Black Suedetex/Leather
brgelise is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 12:42 PM
Registered User
 
agentdr8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: NorCal, CA
Posts: 1,075
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by brgelise View Post
Let's think for a minute. The heat is in the rear causing the trouble, esp with folks that have not performed proper maintenance by bleeding annually. The MC is up front and supposedly is the cause....there is no heat to be concerned about up front. I question how many MC's actually did fail in the first place!! Its all about the line near the exhaust manifold and the clutch solenoid getting roasted.
If the slave cylinder line's position is the main failure cause for master cylinders, then they would have failed equally on US vs ROW cars, as the slave cylinder is still on the LHS of the car for both. But the amount of failures reported on TLF, where the majority of cars are RHD, is significantly less than in the US. The only difference is the clutch master is located on the RHS of the front, versus the LHS on our cars.

One theory is that there is a significant amount of heat on the LHS in the front, as this is where the heater matrix lines are (they cross right under/near the m/c), in addition to the coolant lines on their way to the radiator. The RHS is where the coolant return lines are, after the heat has been exchanged, and thus radiate less heat.

Of course it's all just theory, and there's really no way to definitively know how and why the OEM units fail, as I don't believe anyone has ever dissected an OE unit after failure. Maybe it's just a fixed number of bad units from the part mfg, both metal and plastic ones, and those are just the "unlucky" few. I just don't see the harm in recommending people address it with known-good parts, instead of possibly-good parts. Replacing fluid will only help for so long if it's actually the seals that are wearing out over time.
brgelise and ByJoveByJingle like this.

2011 Evora NA - Phantom Black | Paprika | MT | 2+.5

Last edited by agentdr8; 09-12-2019 at 06:00 PM.
agentdr8 is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 01:58 PM
Registered User
 
ByJoveByJingle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 464
I put redline fluids in my 2014 S after the first time the MC failed and was replaced under warranty. It failed again, replaced again. Then I sold it. Then it failed the new owner. The car wasn’t tracked or even driven extensively. I sold it with about 12,000 miles. Not sure what to say to the people theorizing there isn’t a fatal flaw in the MC and its configuration in LHD cars.

2017 Lotus Evora 400 (6-speed) Yellow on Black

2014 Lotus Evora S 2+2 (6-speed) Verde Ithaca paint with Ebony Black/Red piping interior {Sold}

2010 Lotus Evora, White with Paprika interior, (6-speed){Traded-in}
ByJoveByJingle is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 04:41 PM
DBG
Registered User
 
DBG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 298
Interesting point re the LHD cars. I’ve been expecting this failure any day now, but you’re right in that it doesn’t seem to be as common over here (RHD).

Lotus Evora
Previous: Lotus Sport 111, Lotus Elise 111R
DBG is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 05:05 PM
Registered User
 
Mobius97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by brgelise View Post
Clutch goes to floor from excessive heat it is as simple as sticking foot under pedal to allow refill. I've done it countless times after track sessions on 90 degree days....even with high temp fluids.
I've said this in many post. This is not the only symptom of a failed MC. Mine was exactly the opposite with a pedal that became firm as the car warmed up accompanied by slippage. So it's not always that fallen pedal. Just seems like it's a poor design and definitely heat related.

I remember that discussion on the area where it was housed with pictures etc....does seem plausible.

I have my car serviced yearly, don't track it, not "really" a daily driver ((around 7-8k miles a year) and it still failed.

2005 Elise- Katana II Supercharged and other fun bits
2011 Evora - Daily Driver

Last edited by Mobius97; 09-12-2019 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Clarification on daily driver
Mobius97 is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 06:11 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 55
Maybe my understanding of “failed” is off, but if the MC fails, how does new fluid fix it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
rapsquared is offline  
post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 06:17 PM
Registered User
 
Mobius97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,391
It was a failed seal in mine and wouldn't relieve pressure.

2005 Elise- Katana II Supercharged and other fun bits
2011 Evora - Daily Driver
Mobius97 is offline  
post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-16-2019, 03:56 PM
Registered User
 
BoseMensch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 75
I think my MC is about to go, as I have had the "pedal won't come off the floor" thing twice now in about 2 months, and I just hit 26K miles, which is apparently their lifespan. So I'm taking my 2011 in to have the MC replaced next week, and the service guy told me that it was 4 hours to replace the MC with a factory MC, but 6 hours to replace it with the aftermarket one. He also said that they have had problems with aftermarket MCs in the past, so they might have to just spend a bunch of time on the aftermarket one, only to remove it and then install the factory one instead, and charge me for all that time and the part... Anyone have something like this happen to them?

I ordered the Tilton one from BOE, as (1) it is in stock, and (2) seems to be a good product from the reviews I've found. It just doesn't make any sense to me that it would take two hours longer to install one master cylinder instead of another. Aren't they basically the exact same part? I fail to see how it would take an extra two hours to fit one instead of the other, except for the "we aren't making a profit from you buying parts from us" thing...
BoseMensch is offline  
post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-16-2019, 06:54 PM
Registered User
 
agentdr8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: NorCal, CA
Posts: 1,075
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoseMensch View Post
I think my MC is about to go, as I have had the "pedal won't come off the floor" thing twice now in about 2 months, and I just hit 26K miles, which is apparently their lifespan. So I'm taking my 2011 in to have the MC replaced next week, and the service guy told me that it was 4 hours to replace the MC with a factory MC, but 6 hours to replace it with the aftermarket one. He also said that they have had problems with aftermarket MCs in the past, so they might have to just spend a bunch of time on the aftermarket one, only to remove it and then install the factory one instead, and charge me for all that time and the part... Anyone have something like this happen to them?

I ordered the Tilton one from BOE, as (1) it is in stock, and (2) seems to be a good product from the reviews I've found. It just doesn't make any sense to me that it would take two hours longer to install one master cylinder instead of another. Aren't they basically the exact same part? I fail to see how it would take an extra two hours to fit one instead of the other, except for the "we aren't making a profit from you buying parts from us" thing...
If the person doing the swap doesn't measure the OE cylinder push rod length and transfer that over to the aftermarket one, then a lot of time would probably need to be spent tweaking it for proper engagement and sensor actuation. Otherwise you get weird cruise control behavior or other oddities.

But an additional 2 hours? Unless you're adamant about them doing the work, I'd probably find a different shop...
brgelise and hdho1 like this.

2011 Evora NA - Phantom Black | Paprika | MT | 2+.5
agentdr8 is offline  
post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 07:26 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoseMensch View Post
I think my MC is about to go, as I have had the "pedal won't come off the floor" thing twice now in about 2 months, and I just hit 26K miles, which is apparently their lifespan. So I'm taking my 2011 in to have the MC replaced next week, and the service guy told me that it was 4 hours to replace the MC with a factory MC, but 6 hours to replace it with the aftermarket one. He also said that they have had problems with aftermarket MCs in the past, so they might have to just spend a bunch of time on the aftermarket one, only to remove it and then install the factory one instead, and charge me for all that time and the part... Anyone have something like this happen to them?

I ordered the Tilton one from BOE, as (1) it is in stock, and (2) seems to be a good product from the reviews I've found. It just doesn't make any sense to me that it would take two hours longer to install one master cylinder instead of another. Aren't they basically the exact same part? I fail to see how it would take an extra two hours to fit one instead of the other, except for the "we aren't making a profit from you buying parts from us" thing...
I did the swap myself with the Tiltron cylinder. Makes no sense why it would take extra time to install it if they do it with the clam off. If it's with the clam on, I can only speculate that it may take some extra time trying to fit the new unit in from the wheel well.
hdho1 is offline  
post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-17-2019, 11:01 AM
Registered User
 
BoseMensch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by agentdr8 View Post
If the person doing the swap doesn't measure the OE cylinder push rod length and transfer that over to the aftermarket one, then a lot of time would probably need to be spent tweaking it for proper engagement and sensor actuation. Otherwise you get weird cruise control behavior or other oddities.

But an additional 2 hours? Unless you're adamant about them doing the work, I'd probably find a different shop...
Well thats the problem... There is only one authorized lotus service in the state here, and its on the other side of the state from me. I don't have a place where I could remove the clam and work on the car, so have to go to a shop. I called every local mechanic shop, and nobody is willing to work on it, so I'm stuck with them. I guess I'll just suck it up. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy thinking it was a little strange charging extra time for a MC swap. Oh well. Thanks for the feedback though!
BoseMensch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > Lotus Evora

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome