How to ruin Tesla's image and alienate customers... - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #41 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 01:25 PM
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See how Tesla alienates me is by asking the feds for $400,000,000.

See they say they will have built 600 units by years end (doubt it but lets go with that for a moment). At 600 units, that means for each car they build they are asking for $666,666.67 in federal aid. 6 times the MSRP of each of those units.

To compare, GM is asking for 10,000,000,000 to get them out of trouble (based on the most recent package). From January through November this year, GM has SOLD 2,758,705 units. That means they are asking for $362.49 per unit sold in North America.

No by no means am I necessarily in favor of any bailout (Im torn because I see both sides) but how the heck do you legitimately ask for over $650,000 in federal aid for EACH car you have BUILT in 2008?
Interesting take. Never thought of it that way when I've seen articles like this Editorial: Should auto loans subsidize California jet set? | detnews.com | The Detroit News about subsidizing the California Jet Set. (which I know isn't what the original $15 billion was set aside for but if it's going for $110K+ electric sports cars and not affordable commuter vehicles its essentially what it boils down to)
They just did a press release for car #100, so at the current output car #600 is a long way off. Excellent timing for that milestone right before "can we please have $400 million" talks. Even if long term they don't make it, it's pretty cool they did get 100 of them on the roads. I think current production is stated at 15 per week? We have 2 weeks left (with holidays in there too) so lets say they get out even 145 cars by the end of the year. That works out to $2,758,621 per car. I think thats more than Bugatti Veyron money.

But maybe some of that 400M is to build their plant, to produce the model S. Which I still don't understand the accounting on that, or the price estimates to build a car when there is no plant or staff to build it. I've seen articles saying a working model S would be unveiled by the end of the month though and production could be in Feb. with 1000+ units next year. Seems ambitious for not having a place to produce them. Maybe they'll use Lotus again, that would certainly be awesome for them.

It does seem they've been getting a lot of news over the past few months, much of it not seeming to make a lot of sense.

Saw this one too on the model S, the new plant, and government money. Who really knows what's going on over there. It is interesting though.
DailyTech - Tesla Motors Seeks $350M from DOE for Development, New Facility

But now I'm getting off topic. Some of this should be in the other thread.
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post #42 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 01:33 PM
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Talking about blowing this out of proportion, must be a slow day when this is what you focus your time on

Move on to something else, hey, maybe even Lotus related, would be a nice change.


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post #43 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wallabyguy View Post
See how Tesla alienates me is by asking the feds for $400,000,000.

See they say they will have built 600 units by years end (doubt it but lets go with that for a moment). At 600 units, that means for each car they build they are asking for $666,666.67 in federal aid. 6 times the MSRP of each of those units.

To compare, GM is asking for 10,000,000,000 to get them out of trouble (based on the most recent package). From January through November this year, GM has SOLD 2,758,705 units. That means they are asking for $362.49 per unit sold in North America.

No by no means am I necessarily in favor of any bailout (Im torn because I see both sides) but how the heck do you legitimately ask for over $650,000 in federal aid for EACH car you have BUILT in 2008?
You're rehashing inaccurate information. The $400M loan is part of a $25B alternative fuel fund set up by the DoE expressly to help car manufacturers develop alternative fuel vehicles and tooling.

This is not a bailout.

What is confusing you is that the big three have asked Congress to reallocate this money as a bailout for them. Tesla applied for the money under its intended purpose back in September. Further, this money has nothing to do with funding the Roadster (which is already in production) but for development and manufacturing facilities for the Model S, a four-door sedan with a production run of 10,000-20,000 per year. The headquarters you mention in a later post is actually the entire manufacturing facility for the Model S, as well as space for R&D and Administration.

Lastly, the 600 units refers to the 2008 model production year that runs through about March, not the end of 2008. the 2009 production run starts after that.
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post #44 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 01:41 PM
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I would think that if she lose her job because of this she can take legal action against some of you, I know I would try to.

If that is the case I hope she wins!





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I've seen here listed as reading this thread a few times, as did Bavarian Motorist. If she wanted to respond, she would have/will. I think that she's probably working damage control with her bosses first.

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post #45 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:01 PM
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I would think that if she lose her job because of this she can take legal action against some of you, I know I would try to.


First off, there's no way a small amount of negative buzz on one message board is going to get her in any real trouble. Even if all of the magazine outlets ran the story, it wouldn't all blow back onto her. She's just the messenger, Tesla sets their policy and how they adhere to it.

Second, even if she did get fired because she broadcast info that they wanted to handle more discreetly, the fact that others expressed their negative opinions of Tesla's actions in no way exposes them to legal action. You're out of your mind if you think that anyone has a legal responsibility to hold their opinions to themselves. No one is fabricating anything with intent to harm her, Tesla, or anyone else.
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post #46 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:04 PM
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Not sure what you consider a smallish deposit, but all deliveries to date and for the next number of weeks are cars that have been paid in full for close to two years. It will probably be well over a month before the first 75K deposit holder's car is delivered and a number of months until the first 50K deposit car is delivered.
I was under the impression that the first cars actually had smallish deposits (to generate and show demand), and that it only ramped up with time. But I could certainly be wrong. I haven't followed Tesla that closely.

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post #47 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:12 PM
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...have all one hundred cars produced to date been delivered to final customers?..

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post #48 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:14 PM
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...have all one hundred cars produced to date been delivered to final customers?..
Yes, they are delivered immediately to customers as they are produced.
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post #49 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 05:22 AM
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post #50 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 05:53 AM Thread Starter
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First off, there's no way a small amount of negative buzz on one message board is going to get her in any real trouble. Even if all of the magazine outlets ran the story, it wouldn't all blow back onto her. She's just the messenger, Tesla sets their policy and how they adhere to it.

Second, even if she did get fired because she broadcast info that they wanted to handle more discreetly, the fact that others expressed their negative opinions of Tesla's actions in no way exposes them to legal action. You're out of your mind if you think that anyone has a legal responsibility to hold their opinions to themselves. No one is fabricating anything with intent to harm her, Tesla, or anyone else.

nicely said !

I was wondering how he managed to smoke enough crack to come up with that one...
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post #51 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 05:56 AM Thread Starter
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BTW swede, the crack comment was a joke.. I wouldnt want *you* to get fired and try to sue me...
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post #52 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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You're rehashing inaccurate information. The $400M loan is part of a $25B alternative fuel fund set up by the DoE expressly to help car manufacturers develop alternative fuel vehicles and tooling.

This is not a bailout.

What is confusing you is that the big three have asked Congress to reallocate this money as a bailout for them. Tesla applied for the money under its intended purpose back in September. Further, this money has nothing to do with funding the Roadster (which is already in production) but for development and manufacturing facilities for the Model S, a four-door sedan with a production run of 10,000-20,000 per year. The headquarters you mention in a later post is actually the entire manufacturing facility for the Model S, as well as space for R&D and Administration.
.

smicker, I think the purpose of the money is all a matter of semantics... obviously tesla doesnt want to be seen as asking for money under the pretense that its a bailout but that ship has sailed... the fact is that tesla is borderline insolvent as it stands right now which was the purpose of the recent $40M financing round. Its no secret that tesla has been hemmoraging money which is why all the restructuring has gone on as of late. The same thing is happening right now with the big three.. congress doesnt want to just give out the money untill the have some reassurance that it is not going to go to waste...

with tesla, similar questions need to be answered... how exactly would the $400M be spent and how can we the public be assured (because its all of us that are really loaning this money to tesla) that some of that money is not going to go to keep the roadster in production or keep the company afloat in the meantime.... similarly other questions need answering such as where is the rest of the money going to come from: the model S is *not* going to be built for under $1 Billion... thats a well known cost for developing a new platform from scratch. I know that tesla has floated a $650 million figure which is way to low by a large margin but even so, were would even the extra $250M come from... They barely got the $40M last time. Musk doesnt have that much money and he is leveraged in spacex as well (which is ironically doing *much* better than tesla right now... imagine that a rocket company, one of the most high risk ventures is in better financial shape!)

These questions need to be answered and they are not. Tesla has come a long way from their " we ae going to change the auto industry" rhetoric last year.. I think they finally realized that actually building a car for real is alot more difficult than having lotus build one for you...
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post #53 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 06:33 AM Thread Starter
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Lastly, the 600 units refers to the 2008 model production year that runs through about March, not the end of 2008. the 2009 production run starts after that.
now where in the world does this figure come from???

roadster production is going to be maybe 120 units by the end of the year (dec 31st) which leaves 480 units to be produced in 3 months. thats 40 cars/week which is a huge increase in throughput.. most people dont realize that building more cars isnt simply a matter of hiring on more people and putting them to work... the parts chain has to be ramped up to support this as well and parts suppliers have lead times, sometimes as much as 12 weeks.

Up until now tesla has had a very difficult time getting to the 15 cars/week they are at right now. I praised them in the otehr thread about how they were finally setting and meeting realistic production goals and now this... where are you even getting this info from smicker, I havent heard anything in the industry publications...

BTW: I guess we are kind of getting off topic in this thread but thats OK for now.. The original topic is an ethics issue and we all know how difficult those are for auto salespeople...
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post #54 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 07:32 AM
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Or IL, Gov's.
One in prison waiting for the next one to check in


BTW: I guess we are kind of getting off topic in this thread but thats OK for now.. The original topic is an ethics issue and we all know how difficult those are for auto salespeople... [/QUOTE]

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post #55 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 08:01 AM
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First off, there's no way a small amount of negative buzz on one message board is going to get her in any real trouble. Even if all of the magazine outlets ran the story, it wouldn't all blow back onto her. She's just the messenger, Tesla sets their policy and how they adhere to it.

Second, even if she did get fired because she broadcast info that they wanted to handle more discreetly, the fact that others expressed their negative opinions of Tesla's actions in no way exposes them to legal action. You're out of your mind if you think that anyone has a legal responsibility to hold their opinions to themselves. No one is fabricating anything with intent to harm her, Tesla, or anyone else.
+1

Outside of celebrities suing and winning against the tabloids (which makes even more money for the tabloids). I'd like anyone on this board to tell me they actually found a lawyer who would sue on their behalf let alone have won a libel or slander case. I've been on each end of a threat, and the best you're ever gonna do is get a retraction.

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post #56 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 08:59 AM
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roadster production is going to be maybe 120 units by the end of the year (dec 31st) which leaves 480 units to be produced in 3 months. thats 40 cars/week which is a huge increase in throughput.. most people dont realize that building more cars isnt simply a matter of hiring on more people and putting them to work... the parts chain has to be ramped up to support this as well and parts suppliers have lead times, sometimes as much as 12 weeks.
Deliveries will be closer to 150 by the end of the year, and allowing for 2008 production into April gives closer to 25/wk. You are absolutely correct regarding supply chain challenges--however this production schedule and ramp up rate has been the plan since production started many months ago. There are no surprises here.

I agree that this has gotten off the original topic. Just ask questions. Don't be so quick to attribute things to malice or conspiracy--real life is rarely that exciting.

--Paul
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post #57 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Just ask questions. Don't be so quick to attribute things to malice or conspiracy--real life is rarely that exciting.

--Paul
I respect that. I tend to ask alot of the tough questions. The problem is that answers from tesla havent necessarily been forthcoming and when they have they have been evasive at times. Look at sorienne.. normally you cant stop her from cheerleading up all the tesla posts. Now an important issue comes up, one in which she is at the center and she is not talking. Keep in mind that she has been reading in this thread several times and also posting in other threads but not here.

Its not a good look...
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post #58 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 08:37 AM
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she probably was advised by her employer not to discuss it further...I suspect doing things over she would have done them differently...

However, there is a difference between taking a car that was destined for someone on the list and diverting it to try to make an extra buck on it (do we have evidence of this?) versus someone dropping off the list, in which case there is no obligation to move everyone else on the list up one spot...This same issue was discussed many times with the elise in the early days (when many of us waited a year or longer on the waiting list for our cars)....

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post #59 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 11:26 AM
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she probably was advised by her employer not to discuss it further
Lol, doubtful. I think she's just too busy working 12 hour days since last week to have time to post.
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post #60 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2008, 12:09 PM
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I would think that if she lose her job because of this she can take legal action against some of you, I know I would try to.

If that is the case I hope she wins!


Unbelievable.
No she cannot take legal action against anyone here and if she does, she will lose.

She put the message out on her own forum for all to see and discuss, and it is now being discussed here on this forum.
The last I heard, America still has the right to free speech.......I don't know for how much longer.....but Internet and forums do enjoy the same right to free speech.
The site itself cannot be held accountable for its members actions, which I believe is covered by the terms of service agreement.

Additionally, no Attorney would take a suit of this nature on contingency.
There isn't enough cut and dry evidence nor can you prove who was sitting in front of the computer at the time of the tort.

So yes, YOU would try to sue.........and you would pay , perhaps more than once while standing to lose much more than you'd gain.

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