Tesla gets government loan assistantance to the tune of $465 million. - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-23-2009, 08:38 PM
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ahh i forgot the sky is falling and every company will go under. I forgot that being incapable of being a raging pessimist and assuming the whole world will end over things i can do nothing to fix is a bad thing
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post #22 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-23-2009, 08:44 PM
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What a complete sham.
+1

that money go directly into you know whos pocket and tesla is certainly going to go bankrupt now so he does not have to pay it back either....

pretty easy to hide ~60+ million in a 360+ mil construction project

...just ask dick cheney

i would estimate about 40% of that loan never makes it to "tesla making cars"

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post #23 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-23-2009, 08:50 PM
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So spending money on the development of smarter more economical transportation is a sham? WTF. I hope you had more of a problem with the billions thrown into a fake war in Iraq?
yes, and yes.

ev's are not necessarly smarter or more economical and if we have an energy and/or enviromental problem, cars are not the biggest contributing factor...

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post #24 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-23-2009, 09:15 PM
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Yes, at this stage it is called R&D. Funding needs to come from somewhere to build facilities to mass produce the vehicles. Technically at this point. that figure or more accurately, ratio should actually go up. When production ensues the number will go down. Are you lost on this, or are u just being inflammatory?
I'm not lost at all; re-read the title of the thread. This thread is not about electric vehicles in general, but rather Tesla specifically. I cannot understand why the government would give $465M to any company with a scam artist like Elon Musk at the helm. The whole thing has been a house of cards form the start. There is plenty of information out there on the company.

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post #25 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by fitfan View Post
+1

that money go directly into you know whos pocket and tesla is certainly going to go bankrupt now so he does not have to pay it back either....

pretty easy to hide ~60+ million in a 360+ mil construction project

...just ask dick cheney

i would estimate about 40% of that loan never makes it to "tesla making cars"
this is fracking delorean all over again... "visionary" owner comes up with and idea, promotes it hollywood style, gets lotus involved, gets big govt loans to build a plant and.....

like i said before im just waiting for the video of musk with the suitcase full of cocaine...




seriously though, the powertrain/battery plant is a good idea... that money could be very well spent assuming that that the mismanagement problem is fixed. The other $360 million is simply not enough to build a new model from the ground up... Its not even close so when musk says that they dont need anymore money and they can go it alone it doesn make sense... unless they have already decided to use an existing vehicle platform to build the model S.
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post #26 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 02:33 AM
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Regardless of Musk, Tesla is not developing "affordable" alternatives. Their price point is well out of reach of the majority so why are we giving them a loan? Give the loan to a company that can make an affordable alternative....

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post #27 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 06:14 AM
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Tesla has laid down some good R&D with their lightweight, fast vehicles, and they've attracted a lot of attention by proving how quick an electric vehicle can be. I'd like to see some cheap featherweight vehicles in the future...

As far as making electric cars cheaper, Lithium will be the new gold if we go the way of Tesla. It must be mined from pegmatites and granites. There's also the downside of Lithium being highly reactive and raping the environment if dumped.

I want to see cheaper NiMH or Fe based energy storage for electric vehicles. But realistically, batteries in general are either heavy, toxic, or prohibitively exotic for large scale production. Lead, Cadmium, Lithium... If battery powered electrics were to be widely produced, we'd need to use the most eco-friendly and common battery materials like iron and nickel rather than the most efficient and light (and exotic).

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post #28 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 07:01 AM
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As far as making electric cars cheaper, Lithium will be the new gold if we go the way of Tesla. It must be mined from pegmatites and granites. There's also the downside of Lithium being highly reactive and raping the environment if dumped.
...hey, we could always go with hydrogen energy storage instead; platinum rather than lithium...

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post #29 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 07:13 AM
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I think hydrogen storage is fine right now, you don't need to store it within the lattice of precious metals or R&D fuel cells. You dump it into a giant thermos and it doesn't all evaporate away for 2 weeks. you can also use direct methanol cells and slectrolyte cells to store hydrogen. Los Alamos has been doing about 30 years of R&D. The heat of combustion of hydrogen is terrible compared to giant hydrocarbon chains, but it's workable. People would rather worry about what happens when you leave your car unattended for 2 weeks in an airport parking lot than consider hydrogen though. And infrastructure changes are a bitch.

If someone made a hydrogen car that could go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds it would be pretty badass. But, currently, I think the fastest hydrogen expo car is a 232 HP 6L V12 that can do 0-60 in 6 seconds, and maintaining a liquid hydrogen powered V12 would be sooo easy

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post #30 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jimmyhoffa View Post
Regardless of Musk, Tesla is not developing "affordable" alternatives. Their price point is well out of reach of the majority so why are we giving them a loan? Give the loan to a company that can make an affordable alternative....
A good looking $49,000 four door sedan (Which I drove in last week) is an "affordable alternative".

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post #31 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 07:27 AM
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What happened to capitalism, the free market, and competition?

When the government chooses winners, we all lose.

Maybe Tesla should start making electric Trabants?

Shouldn't the government just figure out a way to tax $465million out of Elon Musk?
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post #32 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 08:29 AM
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So spending money on the development of smarter more economical transportation is a sham?
So what does that have to do with Tesla?
A $100,000+ car that "runs out of gas" after 60 miles- but it gets there quick! does not seem smarter or more economical.

Now a diesel/electric hybrid covered in solar panels to partially top off the batteries while parked would be smarter and more economical. For the time being a simple VW TDI is both smarter and more economical- and you can actually go buy one- afford it even. And it will go 700 miles on a tank of fuel, at the end of which you can find another station. I'm not gonna run across a plug in the mountains if I fall for the illusion I'm gonna go have fun in the mountains in my Tesla electric sports car today.
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post #33 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rob13572468 View Post
this is fracking delorean all over again... "visionary" owner comes up with and idea, promotes it hollywood style, gets lotus involved, gets big govt loans to build a plant and.....

like i said before im just waiting for the video of musk with the suitcase full of cocaine...

.
good one
!
LMFAO


maybe the govvies are smarter than we think they got him nailed? ...Naaahhh!!!!

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
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post #34 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 08:56 AM
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So what does that have to do with Tesla?
A $100,000+ car that "runs out of gas" after 60 miles- but it gets there quick! does not seem smarter or more economical.

Now a diesel/electric hybrid covered in solar panels to partially top off the batteries while parked would be smarter and more economical.
Keith is misrepresenting both the Roadster's range and the purpose of the loan. The Roadster has an EPA range of 244 miles, and the purpose of the loan is to build the seven passenger Model S sedan and battery technology for even more affordable cars. The press release, news articles, and interviews all clearly state this.

Covering a car in solar panels is neither smart nor economical. The amount of electricity you would gain from being parked in the sun all day would barely give you 5 miles. Even manufacturers that plan to put solar panels on their roof don't claim that doing so will increase range--they advertise it as a feature that will allow the car to stay cool by running the fans during the without draining the battery.

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post #35 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ocelotspot View Post
Yes, at this stage it is called R&D. Funding needs to come from somewhere to build facilities to mass produce the vehicles. Technically at this point. that figure or more accurately, ratio should actually go up. When production ensues the number will go down. Are you lost on this, or are u just being inflammatory?
I agree that R&D needs to be done. The sticky wicket is that I would prefer that the money go to a company that I would trust to do the work. To me, Telsa appears more marketing than manufacturing. This loan doesn't make sense. Let's say give a long time battery company half the loan to develop better batteries. Or a long time electric motor company money to develop better electric motors. It's better investment. Why? Because all Tesla's going to do is go to the other companies and give them the cash to do the work and charge "management fees" to us taxpayers.
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post #36 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 09:04 AM
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It's supposed to be a sports car. They advertise it as a sports car always followed by what the 0-60 times are. The 60 mile range came from top gears test on the track when driven like the sports car it is advertised as. If I drove up to the mountains to drive the car like I do my Elise- I would not be making it home. If I drove it like Grandma on an EPA test cycle (I've personally driven EPA test cycles on chassis dynos- and it isn't like how you are going to drive your sports car) I still would not be making it home from the mountains (a 30-40 minute drive away- but spending some time in them even driving along at 45 mph to get any kind of range the hills are still gonna put a hurtin to the range)

Ok ditch the solar panels. A diesel electric hybrid or just a simple 50+ MPG VW TDI would be smarter and more economical. Not to mention serviceable, proven, has a dealer network, etc.

The Govt money would of been of much better benefit to the country to convert an idle big 3 plant to produce an efficient car- the Chevy Volt perhaps if that project has been idled (and something other than pure electric) and kept more Americans working, do more for the economy, etc.

What ever happened with the Chevy Volt anyway. I never thought it would actually see production in any sort of originally proposed form. Haven't heard anything on it in a while. At least if they made it they would be capable of actually getting some cars on the road. They'd put more on the road in a month for half the price than Tesla has put on the road in 5 years.

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post #37 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
Tesla has laid down some good R&D with their lightweight, fast vehicles, and they've attracted a lot of attention by proving how quick an electric vehicle can be. I'd like to see some cheap featherweight vehicles in the future...
From all the news and rumors etc Telsa only manages the process. The "heavy lifting" is done by other companies.
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post #38 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SweetDaddyD View Post
It's supposed to be a sports car. They advertise it as a sports car always followed by what the 0-60 times are. The 60 mile range came from top gears test on the track when driven like the sports car it is advertised as. If I drove up to the mountains to drive the car like I do my Elise- I would not be making it home. If I drove it like Grandma on an EPA test cycle (I've personally driven EPA test cycles on chassis dynos- and it isn't like how you are going to drive your sports car) I still would not be making it home from the mountains (a 30-40 minute drive away- but spending some time in them even driving along at 45 mph to get any kind of range the hills are still gonna put a hurtin to the range)

Ok ditch the solar panels. A diesel electric hybrid or just a simple 50+ MPG VW TDI would be smarter and more economical. Not to mention serviceable, proven, has a dealer network, etc.

The Govt money would of been of much better benefit to the country to convert an idle big 3 plant to produce an efficient car- the Chevy Volt perhaps if that project has been idled (and something other than pure electric) and kept more Americans working, do more for the economy, etc.

What ever happened with the Chevy Volt anyway. I never thought it would actually see production in any sort of originally proposed form. Haven't heard anything on it in a while. At least if they made it they would be capable of actually getting some cars on the road. They'd put more on the road in a month for half the price than Tesla has put on the road in 5 years.
the fisker will be the "real" alternative drivetrain high end car... volt is on its way, volt car itself will be a complete failure - but the drivetrain will be good, and will be found in many cool cars to come. ...fisker - thats legit transportation technology, not a stupid little ev...

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
-Lotus Cars VP of Global Design
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post #39 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 09:26 AM
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What's a few more million while the printing presses are running at full steam? 400+ million for Tesla, 400+ for the staged revolution in Iran; who cares - it costs nothing to print money.

Just a few more months now. Worst Xmas retail is decades. Hyperinflation is the only possible result of printing trillions out of thin air. Bank 'holidays.' Nationalization of same. Commercial real estate collapse. Stock market collapse. Fascist government takeovers of large private industry. More powers for the criminal private Federal Reserve cartel of foreign banks, all unaudited. All in your face now. All you have worked for is being diluted away right in your before your eyes. The banking cartels have taken it all over, including Presidency and the banker stooge cabinet appointees. Argentina, Zimbabwe type inflation. Prepare for it. Or not. Your choice. The USA as you and your parents knew it is ending.

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post #40 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-24-2009, 09:31 AM
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the fisker will be the "real" alternative drivetrain high end car... volt is on its way, volt car itself will be a complete failure - but the drivetrain will be good, and will be found in many cool cars to come. ...fisker - thats legit transportation technology, not a stupid little ev...
Agreed.

Hopefully Fisker can make it on their own. They do have the better product.
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