Tesla gets government loan assistantance to the tune of $465 million. - Page 4 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #61 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-25-2009, 06:52 AM
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Why grant this unsecured loan...which has a VERY long shot of being repaid at any level, to an unproven entity?

Why not treat this money as venture capital? Why not solicit proposals, large and small, from innovators to create practical technology for a fossil fuel-independent car?

Why does our government HAVE to rush this and just hand this money to an entity that has in no way demonstrated either the technological ability or business savvy to pull this off?

Didn't our government learn anything from past examples, such as Haliburton, in simply forking over ungodly sums of taxpayer money to an entity perceived to be the only game in town?

For crying out loud: HAD to have stimulus package RIGHT NOW. HAD to bail out the automakers RIGHT NOW. HAD to bail out banks RIGHT NOW. HAVE to get healthcare reform RIGHT NOW. Today, the breaking news is that the current administration is insisting on immigration reform RIGHT NOW.

We're going down a path that is new territory, and from which, if things collapse, there will be no return.

Current leadership will either be recognized in the future as a visionary, transformational leader OR the steward of the total collapse of our society and culture.
RIGHT NOW = If we (Repub administration) don't do this (RIGHT NOW), we will lose the election (oops, that didn't work)

RIGHT NOW = Dems have ability (RIGHT NOW) to pass legislation without any Repub support (not much more likely to work)

RIGHT NOW != If we don't do this (RIGHT NOW) the world will end tomorrow.
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post #62 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-25-2009, 07:15 AM
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I'm not on the CO2 enviro-doom chicken little bandwagon, but rather I'm sick of relying on mideast oil. I believe we will live to see it run out.
I'm not an enviro nut either, but one thing that the rush to electric cars isn't looking at it is the resources required to mass produce electric cars and batteries. Most of the natural resources required to make things have to be imported. We will be trading our dependence for mid east oil for Chinese, Russian, and South American raw materials needed to manufacture batteries and electric motors in quantities.




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post #63 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-25-2009, 08:06 AM
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For crying out loud: HAD to have stimulus package RIGHT NOW. HAD to bail out the automakers RIGHT NOW. HAD to bail out banks RIGHT NOW. HAVE to get healthcare reform RIGHT NOW. Today, the breaking news is that the current administration is insisting on immigration reform RIGHT NOW.
Everything has to be RIGHT NOW because they don't want anyone to realize that the Emperor has no clothes, or to consider the long-term implications of their ideas.

the1sen: why move forward with design when you can recreate a monstrosity from the past?
FIL: Have you ever heard of a threesome? I know its her sister, but they are Swedish. That $hit is totally accepted over there.
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post #64 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-25-2009, 08:07 AM
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I'm not an enviro nut either, but one thing that the rush to electric cars isn't looking at it is the resources required to mass produce electric cars and batteries. Most of the natural resources required to make things have to be imported. We will be trading our dependence for mid east oil for Chinese, Russian, and South American raw materials needed to manufacture batteries and electric motors in quantities.

Oh Tim, don't be so negative!

the1sen: why move forward with design when you can recreate a monstrosity from the past?
FIL: Have you ever heard of a threesome? I know its her sister, but they are Swedish. That $hit is totally accepted over there.
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post #65 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-25-2009, 09:25 AM
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I have personally driven a Tesla Roadster up into the canyon roads here with two people in it
....who was sitting in who's lap?


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post #66 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-25-2009, 09:30 AM
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....who was sitting in who's lap?


Boo!

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post #67 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-25-2009, 10:08 AM
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Oh Tim, don't be so negative!
Don't mean to be negative, but I tend to like to think things through. The future "shortages" from electric cars was from an analysis that I read - talking about what it took to build up to manufacture electrical car components in large volume. Unfortunately most of the resources that we would need are either controlled by countries not necessarily "friendly" with the US, and/or they have their own economy ramping up and needing more and more resources (China for example). There's even a limited supply of the material needed to make the magnets for the electric motors (at least if they want them to be efficient).

The siwitch to electric cars might seem like a good thing, but the reality is that we could become even more dependant on foreign imports than we are now.

It's along the lines of "climate change". Everything now is to do what ever we need to do to keep things from changing. But not too many have actually looked at whether it would be a good thing on not. For instance, one change that a warmer climate may make is more productive farm land - a longer growing season and much more land advaialbe for farming. At the same time, "they" are predicting that, because of a growing world population, we will need to double the food production over the next 50 years. Just maybe, that "global warming" might be a good thing - people might be a couple of degrees warmer (or they move North), but they may have food in their stomachs.

Everything in this world is a system that has to meet many compromises. The compromises need to be examined for all possibilities, not just the wones that scare people with the big headlines.




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post #68 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 10:07 AM
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Well, if this is anything for you guys to think about...

there are 8 billion more people here today than there were in the 1800s

Simple formula of supply and demand. the more people living our life style the less stuff to go around.

SO. We need to keep africa, the middle east, and China (oops.) and most of the rest of the world living a different lifestyle

Lots more siblings at the dinner table
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post #69 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 12:25 PM
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It seems to me that the Federal Government furnishing of loans to Tesla at this stage of the economic cycle is a perfectly reasonable fulfilment of its duties. I’m no economist but there are a great many corporations out there that will go bust because of the unavailability of working capital.
In recessions ‘The Market’ gets screwed up and that leads to pointlessly destructive instability, which governments possibly have a duty to mitigate. (Keynesian economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
I personally don’t believe that Mr Musk is out to screw the US Government, he’s a very rich man and #ucking with Uncle Sam usually results in a lengthy prison sentence.
He has teamed up with one of the most innovative chassis and technology manufacturers in the world (LOTUS) and his Type S uses Lotus’s VVA architecture and will benefit from all the development that Lotus did with Zap for the drivetrain. Most of Tesla’s Type S is production ready because Lotus have made it so.
The technology needed to make the Type S useable and affordable is already out there and ready for mass manufacture, why not Tesla?
In my opinion a combination of Li ion batteries and Ultra capacitors (Electric double-layer capacitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and perhaps even in combination with a small fuel cell could easily give the Type S a 300mile range.
All the technologies exist but are not yet mass produced. Wasn’t $100 million of the loan for drive train production?
Mr Musk might be personably unlikeable but I reckon even I could suceed in doing what he is proposing - i.e. it's not too far fetched!
IMHO a silent luxurious family saloon that costs pennies to recharge and drives like a lotus will definitely sell 10,000 and it won't be long before he's exporting them to Germany - What a beautiful irony?
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post #70 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 01:01 PM
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Do you have a source for that info?
AFAIK Lotus has nothing whatever to do with the "Type S" and now that Daimler has a chunk of Tesa it seems likely that components for the car will be coming out of their parts bin.

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post #71 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
Don't mean to be negative, but I tend to like to think things through. The future "shortages" from electric cars was from an analysis that I read - talking about what it took to build up to manufacture electrical car components in large volume. Unfortunately most of the resources that we would need are either controlled by countries not necessarily "friendly" with the US, and/or they have their own economy ramping up and needing more and more resources (China for example). There's even a limited supply of the material needed to make the magnets for the electric motors (at least if they want them to be efficient).

The siwitch to electric cars might seem like a good thing, but the reality is that we could become even more dependant on foreign imports than we are now.

It's along the lines of "climate change". Everything now is to do what ever we need to do to keep things from changing. But not too many have actually looked at whether it would be a good thing on not. For instance, one change that a warmer climate may make is more productive farm land - a longer growing season and much more land advaialbe for farming. At the same time, "they" are predicting that, because of a growing world population, we will need to double the food production over the next 50 years. Just maybe, that "global warming" might be a good thing - people might be a couple of degrees warmer (or they move North), but they may have food in their stomachs.

Everything in this world is a system that has to meet many compromises. The compromises need to be examined for all possibilities, not just the wones that scare people with the big headlines.
yeah but... if the earth does globably warm a "few degrees" - we are pretty much at epic destruction. not to sat we can't move our foundations of civilization to ...say.. denver...

we are wholey unprepared for mainstream EV's, we have an energy problem and EV's do not have anything to do with solving that problem - and more likely, as Tim says - it causes more problems. we need to mandate our building energy usage that constitues nearly 70% of electricity used in the US, and the bulk of waste and clean water consumption... then, everything is much eaiser to solve.

if there is a problem fix the issue, however no one is really interested in fixing the issues.

no wonder altanta/ga for example is facing it current problems? no one saw that coming 5 -10 years ago... yea... ev's will fix that! ha!

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
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post #72 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-27-2009, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
Don't mean to be negative, but I tend to like to think things through. The future "shortages" from electric cars was from an analysis that I read - talking about what it took to build up to manufacture electrical car components in large volume. Unfortunately most of the resources that we would need are either controlled by countries not necessarily "friendly" with the US, and/or they have their own economy ramping up and needing more and more resources (China for example). There's even a limited supply of the material needed to make the magnets for the electric motors (at least if they want them to be efficient).

The siwitch to electric cars might seem like a good thing, but the reality is that we could become even more dependant on foreign imports than we are now.

It's along the lines of "climate change". Everything now is to do what ever we need to do to keep things from changing. But not too many have actually looked at whether it would be a good thing on not. For instance, one change that a warmer climate may make is more productive farm land - a longer growing season and much more land advaialbe for farming. At the same time, "they" are predicting that, because of a growing world population, we will need to double the food production over the next 50 years. Just maybe, that "global warming" might be a good thing - people might be a couple of degrees warmer (or they move North), but they may have food in their stomachs.

Everything in this world is a system that has to meet many compromises. The compromises need to be examined for all possibilities, not just the wones that scare people with the big headlines.
Scare tactics are the best way to push unrealistic agendas. There are too many people in power beating the drum of whatever is popular, without thinking through the nuts and bolts of reality.

All this talk of controlling the 0.384% of CO2 in our atmosphere is ridiculous; there will be another ice age regardless of what we do. They used to grow winegrapes in the British Isles. I wonder how that was possible?

the1sen: why move forward with design when you can recreate a monstrosity from the past?
FIL: Have you ever heard of a threesome? I know its her sister, but they are Swedish. That $hit is totally accepted over there.
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