Tesla Increases Prices On Already-Ordered Roadsters - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 07:57 PM
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I don't buy the costs for a second. No one is going to finalize price for a product without a fundamental understanding of their costs. If they do... down in flames.

30 cars per week? May I please have some of what he's smoking? That's fast approaching Lotus annual sales volumes and I just can't see this car doing that, ever. Once the Hollywood A-listers and handful of greenies with money have their halo car, there won't be a sustainable market at that price point. If they can crank out and move ~1500 cars a year, I suspect the market will be saturated after the first year of full-volume production. That target is aggressive enough that I have trouble seeing them manage a followup model simultaneously (back to that cost understanding) and... down in flames.

Mismanagement is certainly afoot and I expect Uncle Sam to call in the government marker... down in flames.


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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 08:05 PM
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Well this whole thing of shafting the people that bankrolled them for free is so they can show the government they are profitable- and then get $400 million or so more of your money. Several million for each car ever produced. They should get it over the Big 3, after all tens of people depend on them for jobs. Then they can start the same scam over with hopes of their claimed "model S" Of course they have no plant to build it with, and that has been put on hold too.

Ponzi Scheme much?
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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-20-2009, 11:18 PM
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Well this whole thing of shafting the people that bankrolled them for free is so they can show the government they are profitable- and then get $400 million or so more of your money. Several million for each car ever produced. They should get it over the Big 3, after all tens of people depend on them for jobs. Then they can start the same scam over with hopes of their claimed "model S" Of course they have no plant to build it with, and that has been put on hold too.

Ponzi Scheme much?
Yeah I know its rediculous... I still want to know how they initially spec the cost at $65K and it ends up being $140K!!!.. ("oh crap we forgot to add in the batteries!").. I mean who runs a business that way and who lends them the money. It really is just like the dot.com bust.


The worst part of this is that *when* tesla goes belly up they are going to blame the whole thing on the recession and congress for not giving them the money when they have only themselves to blame.
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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-21-2009, 12:09 PM
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Well Elon was slick enough to pull this stunt where it would get buried in the news by Obama stuff. The GQ article on him comparing himself to Superman, and a 6 year old oracal in the trees making prophecy to his siblings is about enough to make you hurl. I wonder if the Detroit office views him as the same visionary? Getting fired by a blog posting was pretty far ahead of its time. What did they have- 4 or 5 CEO's before they ever got a car on the ground? If they are going to stand a chance of making it, it's time for one more.

I figure at some point he bails and walks out holding a couple hundred million, like with paypal. He does a lot better job of giving a "build a company to a point and cash out" impression than he does "Mr nice guy out to save the world" Reminds me a lot of villain in the most recent Bond flick. A businessman a lot more than a hippy. The image of green is the new easy money (well until this economy) no matter what the reality is.

What happened to all that talk that he had sufficient capital to back the company if need be a while back?

From this article: Tesla Shafts Customers By Raising Pre-Order Price - News and Analysis by PC Magazine
"The biggest change is that the "high-power connector," which recharges the car's lithium-ion battery in as little as three hours, is no longer included. Now Tesla wants an extra $3,000 for it. Without the high-power connector, it takes up to 37 hours to charge the car."
The price of 11 of the 13 colors shot up too so if you plan on getting the same car for the same price you agreed to pay and loaned them your money for the past couple years- well not so fast there Mr. Green Jeans. Hope you like it stripped of all the options, crappy wheels substituted, and a different color.

"That's ill-advised," said Eric Noble, president of the auto-industry consulting firm The Car Lab, in the article. "Your first buyers are your emissaries. Treat them wrong and all the advertising in the world won't cure it. It's just bad marketing." Aaron Bragman, an IHS Global Insight analyst, said in the report that hitting customers up for more money after they've put down deposits is highly unusual. "They're probably a lot closer to the edge than they want you to think."

From this article:
Tesla Snubs Customers for A Couple Million Dollars on Delayed Roadsters Earth2Tech

From the numbers posted by Roadster owners (and would-be owners), it looks like the price hikes will bring in only a few million dollars for a company that claims to need $200 million in loans to produce a long-promised sedan priced for the mass market — the supposed key to Tesla’s profitability. If the 400 affected customers fork over at least $6,700 to get all of the previously standard options (not at all guaranteed, since they can skip the special features), it will bring in only about $2.7 million in additional revenue. Not exactly a needle-mover. Would that give you the confidence to invest?

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I think Tesla’s latest move shows — they are a company long on ideas, but short on execution or even developing a proper plan. The company just has poor management and perhaps near-average business skills. don’t believe the hype on this one!

Tesla was told by the US Govt. that they have such a bad business that they are not going to get funded. Tesla is just doing this as a last ditch attempt to get the federal loan before they go out of business. There are no “other investors”, they have asked everybody from Dubai to Sand Hill Road and everybody has turned them down because they screwed up their decisions so bad already. Musk has the money and Musk screwed the whole thing up. His staff should revolt and demand that he put the rest of his cash in the company.

The nail in Tesla’s coffin is the fact that the battery pack puts out enough EMF radiation to give you plenty of cancer. Their pack is equal to strapping a bag of cell phones to your head. This was a known problem with the GM EV1 and they fired the engineers that complained about it.
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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 05:31 AM
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...Tesla was told by the US Govt. that they have such a bad business that they are not going to get funded. Tesla is just doing this as a last ditch attempt to get the federal loan before they go out of business. There are no “other investors”, they have asked everybody from Dubai to Sand Hill Road and everybody has turned them down because they screwed up their decisions so bad already. Musk has the money and Musk screwed the whole thing up. His staff should revolt and demand that he put the rest of his cash in the company..
What makes this even more amazing is that Musk's total failure to realize Tesla's objectives as a company are happening at the exact same time as Musk's other company, SpaceX is is experiencing unbridaled success in their objectives. SpaceX has received numerous contracts, have solved difficult engineering problems, and have proven their ability to achieve orbital flight at a cost 100X less than anyone else using their own engine technology developed from scratch. And this is actual rocket science.

So the big question is how is it that there is such disparity in the performance of these two companies particularly when the one that is doing well had a far more difficult task. I tend to believe that the problem from the outset was in the way the teams were put together: for spacex musk literally went out and assembled a team of rocket designers, engine builders, flight engineers, subsystem specialists and then tightly controlled costs from the outset to achieve the desired performance for the rocket and keep costs down at the same time...

With Tesla it seemed to be the opposite: No real automaker management was hired so they had nobody that had the real world experience in managing a new car project from top to bottom. Normally with a regular car this would be a deal breaker but when you are designing a totally new type of propulsion system for supposed mass-production its catastrophic. Same goes for cost-reduction... Instead of designing from the outset for lowest cost, he ent the exact opposite, wasting money on things like new body panels and lowering the side sills when the truth is that the car would have sold even if it had looked exactly like an elise.

Its just wierd that the whole Tesla concept was executed so poorly when it really basically sold itself. Of course at this point its too late anyway.. Fisker and Lotus and maybe even dodge are all catching up.
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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 05:56 AM
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I sadly see Tesla going tits up and Elon Musk pretending like he was the Tucker or Delorean of his time. The difference is that Tucker & Delorean both had automotive/engineering backgrounds. Elon doesn't. His product isn't that innovative. Seriously the only thing worthwhile from this project I see is the motor they built. That's it. I really wanted Tesla to succeed to help Lotus. At this point they seem to be doing everything they can to fail and fail miserably.

If they realize their mistakes and do something for their customers then maybe they can recover.
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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 06:21 AM
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Seriously the only thing worthwhile from this project I see is the motor they built.
Except that it and its electronics are based on an AC Propulsion design they licensed. I doubt Tesla will have any intellectual property to put on the block since their accomplishments appear limited to licensing and marketing.

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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 06:26 AM
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Well then there won't be much to sell for the Chapter 7 proceedings. It reminds me of that episode of South Park with all the Internet Millionaires. I wonder who is worth more on the internet - Tesla or Sneezing Panda?
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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 06:59 AM
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Except that it and its electronics are based on an AC Propulsion design they licensed.
Not at all. Only portions of the drivetrain related to reductive charging are licensed.
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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 07:00 AM
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Technically that wasn't my quote in post 25. In the post I made I cut and pasted quotes from the comments section of the articles linked to (and put that). Not that I technically disagree with them.

I have wondered the same thing. With the apparent rapid success that Space X is having and the nightmare Tesla is turning out to be- how much effort is an already stretched thin egomaniac going to but into it before trying to dump it on another automaker and cashing out? They can't sell any volume without a dealer network anyway, and they probably can't make model S profitably without a plant to build it in. Even if that happens, they still have to figure out the whole "how to build a car" thing for themselves. Let's be realistic. They can't do that and overcome that steep learning curve competitively with manufactures that have the infastructure and experience to do so.

It's all about the money anyway. Space-X and Solar City are going to be Elons business's to bring that in. Tesla at some point is a write off.

5 years ago it was a great idea. Just not executed well. They were just a marketer anyway. Hopefully now an actual manufacturer or two will get a practical zeo emissions vehicle on the road. Or at least improved hybrid technology and more vehicles meeting SULEV standards.
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post #31 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 07:28 AM
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Not at all. Only portions of the drivetrain related to reductive charging are licensed.
It's a bullet/gun argument.

If I make bullets and they make guns, it won't do them much good to have guns if I won't sell them bullets.


It's not like they invented the electric motor. The big parts of the car are squarely based on designs they licensed from other sources - motor electronics from AC Propulsion, chassis from Lotus, etc. Extended, yes, original, no - owned by Tesla? That would be for the courts to decide, but unnecessary since they maintain their license agreements.


And just like DeLorean, they've courted governments to give them sweet deals to build a "Tesla factory."

Tesla Motors - Press Releases

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- let's bring back CanAm & Group B!
- have you hugged your Exige today?
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post #32 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 07:39 AM
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Reminds me of what Lotus did!
+1 I got in before the first price increase since I took delivery of my car in August 2004.

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post #33 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 07:51 AM
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Actually the first price increase was before that from Lotus. They announced the car would be coming over, with all the options for $37,500 originally. Then it was $39,500. Then some features became extra options. Then $42,500. And there was a lot of outcry back then too. Just not as public as Tesla.

It was understood that Lotus was trying to make this work but the dollar-pound exchange rate was hurting them. Which of course is different than not knowing how much the car really costs to make.

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post #34 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 08:33 AM
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Haha, all these facts and issues make the article in this link appear even more like cheer leading...

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f176...otlight-67504/
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post #35 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 09:47 AM
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Never liked Tesla.... seems like a shady deal for a rather crappy car when compared to Fisker

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post #36 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 09:53 AM
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yeah i've yet to see something thats squarely patented by tesla that'd be worth cash, even if its only a partial part of the design iif they land a patent on it , then it could be used for licensing revenues if its a key part that others would use.

i'd say the boutique name/brand might be valuable, even given the silly stuff.

Last time i saw their electronics it wasn't muich to write home about, but they've got some protocol stuff, everything i've seen so far is patent pending

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post #37 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 10:11 AM
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Only patent I could find, not to say there aren't more, or certainly ones pending.
Liquid cooled rotor assembly - Patent - rotor assembly cooling system and method of using same are provided

For a liquid cooled rotor assembly.

I know they have something cooled and there has been problems with the pump running all the time "consuming the energy of 2 small refrigerators" when the car is not in use according to the founders blog- and something that isn't cooled, or adequately cooled when driven hard- like when it overheated in Top Gears test.

Edit: couple more here
Tesla Motors, Inc.
Looks like one is for how the plug connects. The other something about controlling a multi cell battery pack from overheating.


Battery patents are where the success/failure/future of electric cars lie. If they have any good stuff locked up there, they can prevent (or collect royalties on) other companies using it, just like the oil companies do with the battery patents they own now- like the ones GM sold to Chevron/Texaco and the same one C/T sued Toyota for $30M for using it on the RAV4 EV. And won.

Last edited by SweetDaddyD; 01-22-2009 at 10:23 AM.
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post #38 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 10:20 AM
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they've got, that i can find in application , 20090023056 battery pack thermal management, 20090023053 deactivating faulty cells, 20090021385 EV communication interface

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post #39 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 10:33 AM
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Last time i saw their electronics it wasn't muich to write home about, but they've got some protocol stuff, everything i've seen so far is patent pending
Patents usually take 5 years to grant and its normally 2 years before the app is even published. For all we know they could have a bunch of them in process.

From what I heard on their factory tour they claim to have a bunch of IP around the battery pack and using the Lithium batteries.

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post #40 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-22-2009, 10:36 AM
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Patents do take a while, but you can search the pending applications, which is what i did.

there's no guarantee they'll get them, and a lot of companies do patent pending status stuff for a year or so which can help them sell technology to some.

The applications i listed are some of the battery ones.

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