...the Tesla roadster: what a wallowing pig of a car!.. - Page 4 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #61 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 03:59 PM
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the reality is most people in this country are more impressed with 0-60 time than handling...
Yeah, I hear ya. That's the second most asked question here in Detroit area ( at cruise nights ).... the first: What'll it do in the quarter.

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post #62 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 03:59 PM
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i'd like the go and do the E265 conversion i think, the good thing is you can make it dual purposed.

plus i dig the colour scheme., the 270e is smart looking too.

unfortunately you have to change the fuel pump

starts at 4:38

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Black Exige S / Elan M100. Don't run a smaller pulley without an upgraded fuel pump! http://www.goth.am ecu stuff.. New reflash box coming soon!

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post #63 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DarkLotus View Post
Interesting thought: Since the Tesla frame/body is designed and built by Lotus, wouldn't that mean that many of you who are posting angry things should focus that anger on Lotus instead? Basically , the Tesla is the same concept as the Lotus Elise: Source the drive, design/build the frame? So isn't it really Lotus Engineering's fault that it corners the way it does?
...lotus builds the chassis to tesla's specifications - the vague suspension is there at tesla's request...

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Originally Posted by Bane View Post
Sure it may have some body roll but it weighs a lot more. It looks like it would spank our NA Eliges in almost every category...

If it takes a forced induction in a Lotus to beat the electric car then I think they did pretty well for themselves
...actually, the 190 HP naturally-aspirated exige beat the tesla's lap time under identical track conditions despite the tesla's prodigous torque and gearing advantages...

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post #64 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 05:00 PM
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...lotus builds the chassis to tesla's specifications - the vague suspension is there at tesla's request...

...actually, the 190 HP naturally-aspirated exige beat the tesla's lap time under identical track conditions despite the tesla's prodigous torque and gearing advantages...
Just wanted to join this interesting discussion:
Kind of surprised how badly the body roll looked in the handling part, but the OnCars video it didn't seem so bad:
[youtube]EXxOtgn8iGU[/youtube]

They have a 3 part video review here:
OnCars - Read Stories - 2009 Tesla Roadster Part 3 of 3: Performance

Really the Tesla's worst handling over the Exige is kind of expected. It's a lot heavier and also is softer sprung by Tesla's preferences (this is for better ride quality which most of the customers expect since this car isn't really a "track car" but a "sports car"). And doesn't the Exige run on better A048's (albeit on damp track also) or am I mistaken. Also most reviewers say the brakes are inadequate for its weight (normal driving probably shouldn't matter given the regen but this is a sports car which will probably be driven "enthusiastically" so they should address this issue). The Roadster really seriously needs liquid motor cooling to be a track car (as you can see from overheating at sustained max power output), and Tesla is aware of this it seems so they have publicly said the car isn't fit for the track because of the air cooled motor among the other things.

They are thinking of a lighter track version with liquid motor cooling, half the batteries (thus shave off like ~500 lbs resulting in ~2200lb car instead of 2700lbs), and I assume standard stuff like better brakes and better spring rates in the future if there is demand.
Tesla considering a track-ready version of the Roadster - Autoblog

It should still cost around the same as (or less than) a standard Roadster given the smaller battery, but should perform significantly better than the current Roadster in the corners and shouldn't overheat at all even if pushed to the limit. They could even use the swappable battery design like they designed for their sedan. Then they can open an EV racing series and then people don't have to worry about recharge time at the track. Of course this stuff is fairly far ahead in the future.

Last edited by stopcrazypp; 12-15-2008 at 05:12 PM.
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post #65 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 05:39 PM
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Half the batteries? And it'd run outta juice in how many laps?

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post #66 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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...swappable battery packs are a great idea for a six-figure dedicated track car, actually, and if the weight loss coupled with suspension and tire upgrades rein in its handling, it could be a very nice performer indeed...

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post #67 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 05:54 PM
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...I'm just bummed that people think it's the same Elise we have (and in all fairness, it's only the same as the Elise only 50 people in Europe have..
Just have to clear up a BIG misconception! The Elise S is the base model and sold in large numbers around the world (but not in the US). There was a 40th anniversary version of the Elise S of which 50 were made for sale in Europe.

Last edited by Aedo; 12-15-2008 at 06:01 PM. Reason: fixed format
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post #68 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 05:57 PM
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. The Roadster really seriously needs liquid motor cooling to be a track car (as you can see from overheating at sustained max power output), and Tesla is aware of this it seems so they have publicly said the car isn't fit for the track because of the air cooled motor among the other things.

They are thinking of a lighter track version with liquid motor cooling, half the batteries (thus shave off like ~500 lbs resulting in ~2200lb car instead of 2700lbs), and I assume standard stuff like better brakes and better spring rates in the future if there is demand.
Tesla considering a track-ready version of the Roadster - Autoblog

It should still cost around the same as (or less than) a standard Roadster given the smaller battery, but should perform significantly better than the current Roadster in the corners and shouldn't overheat at all even if pushed to the limit. They could even use the swappable battery design like they designed for their sedan. Then they can open an EV racing series and then people don't have to worry about recharge time at the track. Of course this stuff is fairly far ahead in the future.
Welcome.
I thought it was water cooled since there was that article on the founders blog about the pumps running 24/7 consuming the power of two fridge's and draining the battery
Wasting Energy like Two Really Nice Refrigerators Tesla Founders Blog

So I just went back to see what the pumps were and it looks like they are for the batteries.

With half the batteries and another pump for cooling what would the expected track range be- 30 miles, 40 since it's lighter? By the time you came in for the second battery swap would the first battery be charged? I'm guessing the batteries would be half price then- around $10,000. Makes for an expensive track day to have a couple extras.

Also needing a suburban to tow it to and from the track doesn't seem to go along with the battery racer theme very good. Well I guess it could be a bio-dieslel conversion.

For a track car an Exige S260 Cup car or an 211 would be a lot better value- given you still need to tow them to and from the track. Or an S240 that would compete similarly could just be driven there, raced, and driven home leaving $50,000 or $60,000 in your pocket (this is a Lotus board. ) or even $100K+ if you want to leave out the cost of the needed tow vehicle.

Some of the comments on the site you linked to are brutal, but a couple get good points for sarcasm. "the transmission on their hype machine is not broken" I do agree with the point made over there that maybe should just get their cars delivered first that people paid for a couple years ago before worrying about the new race car models. Twice the price of an Exige S240, Elise SC, etc for something with such severe limitations? Not gonna happen with current battery tech. Hopefully something new is on the horizon, and the oil companies don't have the patents on lockdown. I can see it with a 10 minute charge time, but not with a $10-$20K battery swap.

Also every video you see of it it is driven that way. Like in the one you posted. ^ Then when someone drives it that way- every one says that's not what it's about, you shouldn't drive it that way. They don't show it pulling away from a light like an EV1. It's usually power sliding like a bat outta h#ll or something of the nature. Whenever it's compared to one of the other electric vehicle alternatives on or hitting the market- the rebuttal is usually yeah but that car is slow, the Tesla's 0-60 is 3.9 seconds (or whatever it is) with a top speed of 125 and a range of 240 miles. So I think much of their grief has been self inflicted.
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post #69 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 06:00 PM
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Just have to clear up a BIG misconception! The Elise S is the base model and sold in large numbers around the world (but not in the US). There was a 40th anniversary version of the Elise S of which 50 were made for sale in Europe.
Thank you for clarifying. When I looked up the stats the 40th anniversary is what I found.

/glad we get the 190 HP version instead of 134. (and the 240HP version, etc)
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post #70 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 06:05 PM
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The issues I have with the Tesla is the range and the voltage/time required for charging.

It's not the sort of car one could drive to the mountains, unless your inn had a 70A 220V feed they'd allow you access to. For a typical 15A 110V outlet, the recharge time is claimed to be 32 hours.

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post #71 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SweetDaddyD View Post
Thank you for clarifying. When I looked up the stats the 40th anniversary is what I found.

/glad we get the 190 HP version instead of 134. (and the 240HP version, etc)
We get that one too!! Glad we get the choice (including road legal Cup cars)!

Last night we had a Lotus evening run - 6 Elises came along; an S1, two Rover engined Elise S (one of which had just driven across Australia), my 111S (Rover with VVC - 156hp), and Elise S, and a Komotec supercharged and intercooled 111R. Variety is a good thing
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post #72 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 06:31 PM
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You have us killed there. You can drive the 211 on the street too.

(not to mention the S1- which is probably what I would own if I were on the other side of the pond)
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post #73 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-15-2008, 06:42 PM
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You have us killed there. You can drive the 211 on the street too.

(not to mention the S1- which is probably what I would own if I were on the other side of the pond)
Sadly the 2-Eleven isn't road legal in Australia but I agree that the S1 is terrific! When garage space permits I'm going to get an S1 Exige
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post #74 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 03:14 AM
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I don't agree that electric cars are the obvious future.

Whilst in principle the electric motor is superior to the internal combustion engine it's drawback (as most have noticed) is storing enough electricity to use effectively. I agree with Top Gear that the world has got used to the IC being so friendly. I mean, even if an electric car took 30 mins to charge fully (which is a huge improvement) people would still not like it.

Pure electric cars are good for the city and I wouldn't be surprised if in the future most large cities ban non electric cars. this works well as a 50-100 mile daily range would be more than adequate for most commuters. If you couple this to a home Hydrogen fuel cell and pumping H2 down gas main lines instead of natural gas then you could solve alot of problems with one go. Each house could be it's own energy station with a negligable carbon footprint. Hell, you could even use the waste water from the fuel cell (it'd be perfectly drinkable if you chose too or just use to flush toilets)

However there is absolutely totally nothing wrong with the good old IC engine. The only reason it has eco issues is down 100&#37; to the choice of fuel we currently use. the great thing about IC engines is that given suitable tweaking you can run them on pretty much anything. Remember Mr Diesel actually designed his engine to work on peanut oil. It is quite simple to have a fuel that is Co2 neutral as long as it's grown - you're only releasing the CO2 locked up in the bio matter during cultivation so the net effect is zero. With oil we're releasing CO2 that have been locked up millions of years ago so it will obviously increase CO2 in the atmosphere.
Given that the infrastructure and technology is already very advanced I don't see why the IC engine needs to be abandoned. If you want the best of both worlds then you hook up a small IC engine generator, run it at it's peak efficiency point and use that to power an electric motor. It also means fuel stops in terms of minutes rather than hours and no nasty (and hugely expensive) heavy metal batteries.

As for the Tesla - it was designed to be a advert for electric cars to shake off the old image. It was never meant to be like the Elise or a track tool (esp at $90k). the fact they've got it this far shows it can work and hats off to them.
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post #75 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 04:37 AM Thread Starter
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...i don't necessarily think battery-electric cars are the future, but i do think some sort of hybrid-electric powerplant is, similar to diesel-electric ships and locomotives - the performance, efficiency, and maintenance advantages are too profound to remain unexploited...

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post #76 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 04:47 AM
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Probably a repost, sorry.

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post #77 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ...m... View Post
... in the end lagging a second slower through its lap under identical conditions, despite prodigous torque, power, and shifting advantages...
The Tesla was on a "Mildly Moist" track and at 1:27.3 was only 3 tenths behind the Exige at 1:26.9 (dry). ANd shifting advantages are not made for the Stig. Still, a pretty good time for a one point OH.

As to cooling, the PEM (electronics) and batteries are liquid cooled but the motor at this point is only air cooled.

Motor


Forced air cooling jacket


Ready to install with gearbox mounted

Last edited by vfx; 12-16-2008 at 07:12 AM.
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post #78 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 07:09 AM
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If you couple this to a home Hydrogen fuel cell and pumping H2 down gas main lines instead of natural gas then you could solve alot of problems with one go. ...
But aren't the hydrogen lines high pressure? I know that the tanks have to be compressesed to 5000 PSI and more in order to hold practical amounts. The other problem is the molecules are so small that fuel tanks can leak in a matter of weeks. Not insurmountable problems but they cetrainly preclude using any of our current infrastructure.


Quote:
...
With oil we're releasing CO2 that have been locked up millions of years ago so it will obviously increase CO2 in the atmosphere....Mr Diesel actually designed his engine to work on peanut oil....
The great thing about all those millions of years of processing the biomass is it cost us nothing to get a high energy-density fuel. Every time we try to use a fresh source like plant matter we have to spend all sorts of resources like millions of acres of good soil land and energy to plant, cultivate, gather and process it into a usable fuel. A poor net gain.

I don't want the ICE to go away but every year the batteries get better and and the Tesla has proved the motor is viable so it's just a matter of time.
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post #79 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 07:36 AM
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post #80 of 107 (permalink) Old 12-16-2008, 08:24 AM
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I think the Tesla did what it was supposed to do, and was fine.

One thing about the lap time is that a mildly moist track played right to the Tesla -- it was still dry enough to use the acceleration in a straight line (the very strong point of the Tesla) and actually benefit it (relative to the Porsche) in the corners, since there was more pressure per square inch of contact patch on the tires to maximize grip.

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