BOE Manual Brake Cage - Install Review - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-06-2017, 04:05 PM
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I was planning to go CP 5040 all round .. no prob to get new hats built made to suit .

Interesting re they make a 9444 with 130mm ctrs ... will get my local agent to check.

Noted Re plumbing for the ABS , no problem

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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-07-2017, 06:54 AM
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Funny you say that, my rep acted like the 130 racing caliper may just go away for the more common 152. I'm really suspect of the information. It does sounds like the lighter/stiffer radi-cal is the way they see forward. It would be great to see a 9444/5 version in 130. for now, we really enjoy the 9444/5 in 152 with the adapters. just don't have a great solution for the EP upright.

I'm not surprised that Geary suggested against the machining. I would too if it were my part that I was selling (LIABILITY). but as a customer, it doesn't mean that I wouldn't do it

Cheers,

Phil


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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 07:51 AM
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As usual, I was one of the early guinea pigs on this setup for the Blackwatch Racing XP car. The braking on the XP car has been OK, never great. Because of Ice-mode the ABS was disabled many years ago. I have been fortunate enough to win 7 championships in it as it was with the brake booster so I was very hesitant. Ultimately, I took the plunge and did some eval on the setup from Phil.

The bottom line is that after an adjustment period of getting used to no booster, the brakes are FAR better than they were previously. The booster squish is gone. The control of the bias is critical and really helpful. There is more pedal effort, but it isn't a leg breaker. The key to the extra effort is the granularity you get. If with the booster max pedal pressure was 20lbs. You had to modulate your leg between 0 and 20 lbs. Now, maybe it is 80lbs. But 0-80 is a much bigger range so I feel like I can really get on the limit and keep it there. Far from a "Rube-Goldberg Contraption", the cage has some of our feedback in the design and looks/works the way proper dual-master balance bar setups have since the 70s. I know Phil went top of the line with the bearing sizes etc. so there is little to no flex. I love the stock pedals. They are stiff & light and my feet know where they are, so I wouldn't change them lightly.

In any case for the real racers & track rats, it is a really good thing. The stock ABS is just garbage.

Ultimately, on the Optima car we will be putting this in with the blingy calipers in the front for track duty on street tires.

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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-09-2017, 12:00 PM
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Fred , thanks for the info , very interesting.
Could you advise the actual specs you are running i.e. Front & Rear Calipers and discs
Looking to fit to a 2-11 and will remove the Booster and ABS ..

Cheers

P.S I dont see the cage for sale on your website ?

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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-09-2017, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
Funny you say that, my rep acted like the 130 racing caliper may just go away for the more common 152. I'm really suspect of the information. It does sounds like the lighter/stiffer radi-cal is the way they see forward. It would be great to see a 9444/5 version in 130. for now, we really enjoy the 9444/5 in 152 with the adapters. just don't have a great solution for the EP upright.

I'm not surprised that Geary suggested against the machining. I would too if it were my part that I was selling (LIABILITY). but as a customer, it doesn't mean that I wouldn't do it

Cheers,

Phil
I contacted AP direct re CP5040 replacement and they advised ...

The answer is yes we are planning to introduce a Pro 5000R Radi-CAL™ caliper with 130mm centres, however this is probably a minimum of 12 -18 months away.

Just so there is no confusion the CP5040 is specific to the Elise part GT front upright .
https://www.eliseparts.com/products/...ront-uprights/

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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-09-2017, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cph View Post
Fred , thanks for the info , very interesting.
Could you advise the actual specs you are running i.e. Front & Rear Calipers and discs
Looking to fit to a 2-11 and will remove the Booster and ABS ..

Cheers

P.S I dont see the cage for sale on your website ?
You're right. I always would rather work on stuff OTHER than the website. I'll get it up there shortly. I am running the 2 pot stock front calipers on all 4 corners with the relocation brackets and the CL-6 brake pads. Works very well. I would think for a 2-11 as it is so light you would be in fine shape with a similar setup.


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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 06:14 AM
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For all of you out there that want to maximize the braking potential of your Lotus, you need to 86 the ABS and brake booster and install a brake balance system with manual brakes. If the pedal effort is too great, you can resize the masters to decrease the effort. Therefore, you now have a brake system that can be fine tuned to you. I do not have Phil's brake system but have Pilbeam's system. It installs differently but provides the same functionality in the end. Phil did not have his system available when I was searching for a fix for the brake biasing problem with my Exige. It took a couple of tries to get it right and Phil has done this for you so you will save money. In the end, I swapped out the AP calipers and installed Wilwood calipers but they do require an adapter bracket. I have the same size calipers, front and rear but have the larger rotors, 305mm, on the front and 288mm on the rear.

I would recommend working with Phil because calling across the pond to get information or product was not always that convenient. If you have never done this type of upgrade before, you are going to need a little hand holding to get the system dialed in for you.

Later,
Eldon
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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-25-2017, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
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OK after using this on the track I have to say it was a great decision.

It took a few sessions to learn how hard to press the pedal, but in the end it was worth it.

1. The bias adjustment lets you get the car to rotate while trail braking the way you want it to.
2. The braking distances were very decreased, I ended up entering corners too slow all weekend.
3. MOST IMPORTANT - I didn't lock up a single tire all weekend in 12 sessions. I also had next to no brake wear because the braking was being distributed better leading to less heat buildup. I think this is going to pay for itself within 10 track weekends. We will see for sure next time I am at COTA.
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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-25-2017, 07:55 AM
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No lock up? You weren't braking late and hard enough.

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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-25-2017, 08:11 AM
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No lock up? You weren't braking late and hard enough.
I will have to agree with Jack on this one but Kevin did say he was over braking.

Jack, once you can get the car to have the correct rear brake bias, I have found that it is more difficult to lock up a tire unless you are really unloading one tire.

Later,
Eldon
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post #31 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-25-2017, 08:46 AM Thread Starter
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OK I have a few little squeaks on turn in, but my tires are still 100% round, I don't think I have ever had a track weekend where I can say that before. Also there is no straight line braking really at MSR so it's easier to not lock up, COTA 11 and 12 will be the best test of lockup as you are strictly threshold braking with a 90 MPH speed reduction in a straight line.

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post #32 of 47 (permalink) Old 01-17-2018, 04:36 PM
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Been a bit hesitant to go for this as I still consider my Lotus a "street" car even though more and more of its use is on track. (At heart, I'm a canyon road person.) However, after speaking with Eldon I think I'm going to go for this. I'll likely get it installed by TrackSpec in the Bay Area and then take a 400 mile drive home to SoCal. If I crash, I'm gonna blame it on Phil!

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post #33 of 47 (permalink) Old 01-17-2018, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
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Been a bit hesitant to go for this as I still consider my Lotus a "street" car even though more and more of its use is on track. (At heart, I'm a canyon road person.) However, after speaking with Eldon I think I'm going to go for this. I'll likely get it installed by TrackSpec in the Bay Area and then take a 400 mile drive home to SoCal. If I crash, I'm gonna blame it on Phil!
You won't be disappointed and remind Phil to send me my commission check!

Later,
Eldon
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post #34 of 47 (permalink) Old 01-18-2018, 01:10 PM
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P.S. For people still worried about pedal effort, I just realized that 111S have unassisted brakes from the factory. 111Rs have assisted brakes because Lotus needed an ABS system so they swiped the entire system (power assist + ABS) from the VX220.

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post #35 of 47 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 04:36 AM
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P.S. For people still worried about pedal effort, I just realized that 111S have unassisted brakes from the factory. 111Rs have assisted brakes because Lotus needed an ABS system so they swiped the entire system (power assist + ABS) from the VX220.
Yeah, Pedal effort isn't really a thing with this setup. Does it require more force? Definitely. Is it well within the comfortable range of the biggest muscle group on your body? Yes. After a day of 20 minute track sessions, I notice my arm fatigue from the manual steering far more than my legs. It is just different.


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post #36 of 47 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 09:57 AM
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Yeah, Pedal effort isn't really a thing with this setup. Does it require more force? Definitely. Is it well within the comfortable range of the biggest muscle group on your body? Yes. After a day of 20 minute track sessions, I notice my arm fatigue from the manual steering far more than my legs. It is just different.
Obviously you're not going fast enough then, since the steering lightens when front end grip is near the limit.

The one thing that always gets me is how sore my hands are after my first session. It's not a factor after that, but definitely need to adjust the first time out. Also how sore my butt is the day after, but that's only for Streets of Willow.

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post #37 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:01 AM
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Can someone explain why proportioning valves are not a good solution for braking bias when running front calipers on 4 corners?

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post #38 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:11 AM
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Can someone explain why proportioning valves are not a good solution for braking bias when running front calipers on 4 corners?
Proportioning valves are designed to limit pressure to a maximum pressure. They are usually used on the rear brakes when you have too much rear brake pressure. They install in the brake line to the rear brakes. They do not do anything to balance the front to rear brake bias.

Later,
Eldon
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post #39 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 10:47 AM
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Adding to Eldon's post...

Here's a nice tech article that explains it well..

Proportioning Valves


The biasing cage we make is "strategy 2" in this article where it ends with

"Real-time driver control over bias makes adjustments for changing track conditions or fuel load practically effortless. The complexity of this design makes it highly impractical for street use, but on track it simply can not be beat for ease of adjustment."

That said, have a read. "Proportioning Valves" as it were, are not really proportioning valves...

Best,

Phil


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2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #40 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:09 PM
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Thanks.
I am trying to figure out whether a valve is "a reasonable low budget solution, not as good as a bias cage" or just "not a good idea".
Looks like it is the former.

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