Bare minimum track mods for Stock Elise? - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-17-2010, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 38bfast View Post
Of course you have hard data to prove that statement, right? You have logged fuel pressure, AFM and tank float position so you can make that statement?

I have, and my data shows a stock Elise / Exige on stock tires can show a lean condition starting with a full tank of fuel at the end of a 20 minute session.

If the engine cuts out due to a fuel starve issue it has gone way past a lean condition. It has run out of fuel to the engine. At that point it does not hurt the engine a bit. The part that kills an engine is when it starts running lean. getting some fuel just not enough. You most likely wonít feel that when you are driving the car. Well you wonít feel it until you melt down a piston.

I have heard this Ĺ tank folk lore way too much. It is point blank incorrect.

Ok off my soap box.
I have also seen that issue directly related to age of the tank/car if it has a stock tank. Mine was fine for the first two years then got progressively worse to the point that even with a full tank it would start starving at the end of a 20 minute session(monitored Fuel pressure) Once that sealant breaks down they really go to crap!

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post #22 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-17-2010, 10:53 AM
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if you have a warranty the only thing I would do if I thought I Was going to push it is the rear toe link.

Lotus should cover the engine if it blows (if you have a warranty). I've also heard of overfilling the oil if you don't have the g/moroso pan

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post #23 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-17-2010, 11:01 AM
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Hey John,

Just replied to your PM.lol

Lots of good input from above. Since the car is NA and the drivers is new to the car, the most important prep is yourself, IMO. This is a lot different than the Mazada 3! The car has snap oversteer in a millisecond by comparison, so you should really tip-toe into the corners. Understanding how to throttle oversteer and trail brake a mid/rear engine like this car is the toughest part about learning how to drive the elise but it's also the key to keeping the car out of the wall if you feel you're coming in "too hot"...

As others said, flush your brake fluid and replace with ATE or similar. Make sure your pads are in good shape. Short of the basics like tire pressure, your next step is a simple, but detailed, a full inspection of fixings about the car. Key check points are the toe-links, wheels, and uprights.

RE the toelinks. Remove the nuts and pull the links out a bit to expose the studs. Inspect the studs for any wear or deformation. If they look good, then reinstall and tq to 45lbft. Inspect these fasteners before each track event. As you get faster and more fully utilize a r comp tire like the 048 or 888, it will be a great idea to replace the links with something from the aftermarket.

While you're getting started, the oil pan and fuel starve issues are not at the top of the list, IMO. They're important, but you're not going to be pushing things that hard for a little while. Be sure the fuel is topped off before you go out and enjoy yourself... Again, you'll want to upgrade these parts as you start pushing the car, but the first sevral sessions out will be like trying to learn to drive all over again compared to the Mazada 3...

Again, go slow. These little things are nothing like front engine 4 door with wrong wheel drive...


Call me any time.

Later,

Phil


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post #24 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-18-2010, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Wow, didn't expect to get such spirited debate and feedback over this question, this is why I love this site!

Thank you one and all for your advice, it is greatly appreciated.

My handle of KCjohnny was created when I used to live in Kansas City MO. I did indeed meet up with Phil a couple of times during open track days at Heartland Park Raceway in Kansas, where I routinely drooled over the "Lotus Gang" Elises that frequented the track.
Had I bought an Elise when I was still living there, I would have had it in Phil's shop for sure! I need to change my hand to NYjohnny now LOL.

Speaking of....hey Phil, great to hear from you!

From all of the great advice here, I think the Elise "as is" will be more than enough for quite some time. I can't wait to let everyone know when the deal closes......
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post #25 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZJChaser View Post
I have also seen that issue directly related to age of the tank/car if it has a stock tank. Mine was fine for the first two years then got progressively worse to the point that even with a full tank it would start starving at the end of a 20 minute session(monitored Fuel pressure) Once that sealant breaks down they really go to crap!
What exactly breaks down? A pliable sealant that holds a baffle in place? Is there a way to hear / listen for whatever rubber ducky is floating around inside the tank?
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post #26 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 12:58 PM
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What exactly breaks down? A pliable sealant that holds a baffle in place? Is there a way to hear / listen for whatever rubber ducky is floating around inside the tank?
Lotus used epoxy to try and help the starve issue. Unfortunately it does not stick to the stainless steel in the tank. I gets very brittle and separates from the seam. I have yet to disassemble a tank (over 75 tanks) to find the Epoxy intact.

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post #27 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 01:19 PM
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Lotus used epoxy to try and help the starve issue. Unfortunately it does not stick to the stainless steel in the tank. I gets very brittle and separates from the seam. I have yet to disassemble a tank (over 75 tanks) to find the Epoxy intact.
Oiy vey comes to mind. Thanks, can you amplify a bit on what is epoxied? Some sort of metal sheet thatís epoxied in help reduce fuel slosh, or?
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post #28 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 01:24 PM
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picture worth 1k words...

http://sector111.com/images/products...0in%20tank.bmp

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post #29 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 01:36 PM
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Yep, very educational, thanks for posting. Who knew a solvent like gas could work through glue??? An amazing discovery indeed. So I guess those baffles are just laying around / sloshing back and forth wild and free inside our tanks.
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post #30 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by GTI-Guy View Post
Yep, very educational, thanks for posting. Who knew a solvent like gas could work through glue??? An amazing discovery indeed. So I guess those baffles are just laying around / sloshing back and forth wild and free inside our tanks.
The bafles are spot welded, the sealant falling out lets the gas bypass them on the sides.

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post #31 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 01:54 PM
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The bafles are spot welded, the sealant falling out lets the gas bypass them on the sides.

gm
Ah, more interesting facts. That would indicate the more sustained / longer the turn, the more time the gas has to slip through / not stay in place. Thanks Glacial Moraine (what is that screen name about?), good to separate fact from fiction from internet theory!
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post #32 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 02:07 PM
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Its kind of redundant, but...

Moraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

to show my love of the mountains I guess.

gm

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post #33 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 04:57 PM
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to show my love of the mountains I guess.

gm
U're a pile of glacial debris? Take no offense, I'll just assume u're on a higher plane of existence than I ;-)

So, I was wondering, with all that epoxy crud floating around, I could check the fuel filter to see if some had accumulated there, then good chance for fuel starve, if not, then my tank might be okay. U agree?
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post #34 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 06:16 PM
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Gti-

There's a sock on the fuel pump that keeps the big stuff out and another in-tank filter for the really little stuff--- there's not a real easy way to check the condition of the tank, since pulling the fuel pump is required to see the filter/sock... I've got a basic tutorial on how to R&R the fuel pump on my website. It's a pretty difficult task on the 2005s due to an extremely tight fit of the pump/filter cartridge. Easier on the 06+ cars. Requires sheet metal cutting in both cases though...

It takes a relatively experienced track driver on decent tires to starve the car of fuel provided the tank is reasonably full, FWIW... I contend that it would be near impossible to starve the car for fuel on the street, as the turns just don't last long enough, traction is poor, it's illegal to drive that hard, etc...

That said, if you ever decide you need a fuel starve solution, I can hook up you up with our system next time you're in town or Ralph can modify your tank...

Take care,

Phil


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2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #35 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
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..or Ralph can modify your tank...

Take care,

Phil
Who is this ralph, what does he do to the tank, and what does he charge?

thanks,

Steve

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post #36 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 06:57 PM
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Sorry... Let me rephrase...You can get a modified fuel tank via Sector111... Both Mine and his (ralph via S111) solutions cost about the same and have their pros and cons. Both require labor. Hard to say which is easier... Both will take care of a fuel starve problem though...

Cheers,

Phil

PS- A link to the LT thread on our surge tank is in my footer and more info here :http://www.boefabrication.com/Fuel.html... www.sector111.com has info on the V2 fuel tank mod...


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #37 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 07:38 PM
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on the fuel starve issue, I was under the understanding that is only an issue on the blown cars and on the NA cars there are no ill effects other than losing speed.

What say you, Elise experts?

I had it happen once at buttonwillow on a 1/2 tank of gas. I did not pick up what was happening because it happened fast but my instructor definitely noticed it and asked if the car had a fuel starve issue.

after that happened I am pretty diligent about fueling up often on track days.

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post #38 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glacialmoraine View Post
Who is this ralph, what does he do to the tank, and what does he charge?

thanks,

Steve
Ralph would be me.

I cut the end off the OE tank. remove the OE baffle. Install the new V2 baffle and add two one way doors to the new baffle. Then weld the tank back up and pressure test it for 24 hours.

Keeps all the emissions intact. OE installation and plumbing.

Customers have reported going below 1 gallon of fuel and no starve issues.

The service is available through Sector 111 on a exchange basis.

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post #39 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 07:44 PM
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on the fuel starve issue, I was under the understanding that is only an issue on the blown cars and on the NA cars there are no ill effects other than losing speed.

What say you, Elise experts?

I had it happen once at buttonwillow on a 1/2 tank of gas. I did not pick up what was happening because it happened fast but my instructor definitely noticed it and asked if the car had a fuel starve issue.

after that happened I am pretty diligent about fueling up often on track days.
It takes a bit longer for the damage to acure on a NA car then on a FI car. But it still will cause damage. Way lean is bad for any motor under full power.

Ralph Provitz
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post #40 of 58 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 07:44 PM
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on the fuel starve issue, I was under the understanding that is only an issue on the blown cars and on the NA cars there are no ill effects other than losing speed.

What say you, Elise experts?

I had it happen once at buttonwillow on a 1/2 tank of gas. I did not pick up what was happening because it happened fast but my instructor definitely noticed it and asked if the car had a fuel starve issue.

after that happened I am pretty diligent about fueling up often on track days.
PEcivil,

Can happen on any car... It has broken engines on both NA and FI cars... Obviously, it is tougher on FI cars on average though.... FI car don't really corner that much faster than NA cars and that's where the starve takes place- on long lefters...

38,

Hi Ralph

Cheers,

Phil


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

____________________________________________

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BOE ClamHinge | BOE TVS SuperCharging, The Most Powerful Track-Worthy Forced Induction | EFI Engine Management | BOE The Essential Fuel Starve Solution| BOE Lotus Tow Package| BOE New-Tech Lotus Race Engines | The Right Oil Filter for Your Lotus | Custom Lotus ECU Tuning


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