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post #41 of 148 (permalink) Old 04-21-2006, 05:15 PM
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Elise Safety

Excellent post Christopher based upon a lot of research and illustrated by excellent pictures. The lap belt eyes appear to be an excellent solution. Trackies should take note.

LUC
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post #42 of 148 (permalink) Old 04-22-2006, 07:14 AM
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Evil Twin - GREAT post. This is exactly what I've been looking for. Two questions:

1) what exactly is am I looking at in the picture above - is this the back of the eye bolt used to attach the lap belts? I don't yet have my Elise, so I don't have a reference point to compare to yet...

2) do you happen to have the Lotus Lotus Motorsports Competition install instructions in soft copy, or can you tell me where to find a copy?

Just hope I can get this all done within the next 3 weeks prior to my next track event...

Many thanks!!

R Warden
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post #43 of 148 (permalink) Old 04-22-2006, 07:39 AM
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Evil Twin - also, where did you get the cool Nurburgring Nordschleife sticker?
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post #44 of 148 (permalink) Old 04-22-2006, 08:01 AM
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You're looking at the driver's side backing plate with the bolt installed. The orientation has the back of the car at the top of the photo, so the left side of the photo is the left side of the car. I do have a soft-copy of the installation instructions, but they have been faxed/copied several times, so they won't be of much use to you. I don't have a clue where you'd get a clean original, sorry. The Nordschleife decal comes from the Shell station located not far from the paddock, but you're not allowed to display one until you've done at least 50 laps...

Twin

2005 Graphite Gray with Black Interior, Sports Package, Touring Package, Hard Top, Starshield, 6-point Schroth Harness, Fire Extinguisher, and Wiring Loom for DL-1. Otherwise bone stock -- and staying that way -- okay, okay, that's true if you ignore the Braille battery, Micro mirror, Multivex mirrors, ROTA slipstreams, RA-1s, two-piece rotors, springs, polyurethane ASB bushings, RTD brace, Sparco seat, and all the stuff I've taken out of the car...

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post #45 of 148 (permalink) Old 04-22-2006, 11:21 AM
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Evil Twin - Thanks!

50 laps, close, perhaps 30 to 40, but not in a lotus.... a friend's Porsche 993. I'm anxiously looking forward to the lotus.
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post #46 of 148 (permalink) Old 04-22-2006, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry
A group of us in my P-car club have purchased and are using the R3 head and neck device. We chose it over the HANS because it seems like it will give some support for instructors even with 3 point belts or in the absence of properly set up harnesses. Fortunately, no one has yet tested the device in action. It is a bit of a pain to get used to the limitation in motion and I find that the clips on the tethers sometimes bind but I intend to persevere.
terry, i am not familair with this set-up, do you have some pictures and a link of where to buy them? thanks
josh
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post #47 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-08-2006, 02:22 PM
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Anti-Sub Bar by [email protected]

Update: while I bought and installed the Sector111 4Tress bar and am happy with it, I removed the anti-submarine strap I bought from them b/c (i) there's insufficient clearance between the bar and the bottom of the seat once the straps have been attached (this forces the bar to bow out from its mounting bolts even with spacer washers inserted and bind against the brackets that secure the strap to the bar) and (ii) I didn't like how the bar attaches to those bolts (the ends are simply bent in a big loop, secured by big flat washers and nuts).

I'm sure from a safety perspective, it was fine, but my buddy, Dave, offered up a better solution, and I thought I'd post some details about it here. Dave makes custom bicycle frames, but he also has a thriving business doing various car-related parts, mostly for NSX's. You can find him and some of his stuff on NSXPrime.com under the screen name "TitaniumDave".

Anyhow, below is a photo of the anti-sub bar that he made for me. This one's a beta, so it hasn't been painted, but I find it altogether a better solution than what I had. If anyone's interested, Dave can be reached at [email protected]. I'm sure he'd be happy to make more of these now that he's broken the code on how to do so. You'd have to negotiate the details with him. I just thought I'd share what he's done with the community in case someone's looking for a better way of securing their sub-strap.

Best,
Twin
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2005 Graphite Gray with Black Interior, Sports Package, Touring Package, Hard Top, Starshield, 6-point Schroth Harness, Fire Extinguisher, and Wiring Loom for DL-1. Otherwise bone stock -- and staying that way -- okay, okay, that's true if you ignore the Braille battery, Micro mirror, Multivex mirrors, ROTA slipstreams, RA-1s, two-piece rotors, springs, polyurethane ASB bushings, RTD brace, Sparco seat, and all the stuff I've taken out of the car...


Last edited by Evil Twin; 05-08-2006 at 02:35 PM.
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post #48 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-08-2006, 08:01 PM
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Evil,

The other option you may have considered is using the OEM lap mount points for for anti-sub belts. I'll be doing just this. Otherwise my set-up is similar to yours. I am considering swapping out my BWR harness bar for a 4Tress. The 4 Tress sits lower. I'd like it to sit even lower as you stated. I have the same problem with the downward slope of the shoulder belts and I don't think the 4Tress will be low enough.
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post #49 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-09-2006, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyelise
The other option you may have considered is using the OEM lap mount points for for anti-sub belts.

I'd like it to sit even lower as you stated. I have the same problem with the downward slope of the shoulder belts and I don't think the 4Tress will be low enough.
I'm not comfortable deviating from the Schroth recommendations for the geometry of the anti-sub strap mounting, so I'll stick with what I've got, but thanks for the suggestion. Using the stock lap belt mounts results in a pretty steep rearward angle to the substraps and doubles the length of the straps, neither of which seems desireable.

Just fyi, but I called both HANS and Schroth and discussed the geometry of the shoulder straps. On me, the straps fall about 15 degrees from horizontal. HANS said that the device will work just fine (i.e., the HANS itself is not sensitive that that angle) but said that requirement should still be met in order for the harness to work properly. I then called Schroth. They said that the issue with the straps falling from the horizontal from the bar to the shoulders is that it'll take longer to get the straps loaded in the event of an accident, but they reassured me that 15 degrees is acceptable, albeit not ideal/perfect.

The upshot of all that, I guess, is that I'll stick with what I've got. I just wish Lotus Motorsports would get their legal concerns resolved so that they can actually start providing some factory-recommended solutions for this sort of stuff. For a car that was explicitly designed for track-work, it's unfortunate that we're having to engineer solutions for safety on our own.

Twin

2005 Graphite Gray with Black Interior, Sports Package, Touring Package, Hard Top, Starshield, 6-point Schroth Harness, Fire Extinguisher, and Wiring Loom for DL-1. Otherwise bone stock -- and staying that way -- okay, okay, that's true if you ignore the Braille battery, Micro mirror, Multivex mirrors, ROTA slipstreams, RA-1s, two-piece rotors, springs, polyurethane ASB bushings, RTD brace, Sparco seat, and all the stuff I've taken out of the car...


Last edited by Evil Twin; 05-09-2006 at 02:46 PM.
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post #50 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-09-2006, 10:24 AM
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Evil Twin - good post. I have the Sector111 sub bars, but haven't yet installed them yet. After looking at it, I was planning on putting several washers between the bar and the metal seat bracket, thus lifting the bar off the bracket more to allow more room for the harness buckles. I like you customer bar better. I've already cut slots in my seats, and I'm getting my seat cover's modded by a local upholstery shop tomorrow!

I noticed your seat was done by the same "TIM" as mine.

-R Warden

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post #51 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-09-2006, 11:53 AM
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[QUOTE=Evil Twin]I'm not comfortable deviating from the Schroth recommendations for the geometery of the anti-sub strap mounting, so I'll stick with what I've got, but thanks for the suggestion. Using the stock lap belt mounts results in a pretty steep rearward angle to the substraps and doubles the length of the straps, neither of which seems desireable.

I spoke with harness specialist at TeamTech when devising this approach. TeamTech has a great rep and does a lot of OEM work with Vipers. The anti-sub routing would go from the OEM lap mount under the thigh and up to the camlock. The length might actually be no longer than your set-up. This is the same approach fighter pilots use in jets. You essentially sit on the antisubs. It disperses the force more evenly across the pelvis and the angle is better to hold the pelvis back in the seat. It also favors the family jewels. Google teamTech and check out the JetPilot harness. My setup is a variation of this.
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post #52 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-09-2006, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyelise
I spoke with harness specialist at TeamTech when devising this approach. TeamTech has a great rep and does a lot of OEM work with Vipers. The anti-sub routing would go from the OEM lap mount under the thigh and up to the camlock. The length might actually be no longer than your set-up. This is the same approach fighter pilots use in jets. You essentially sit on the antisubs. It disperses the force more evenly across the pelvis and the angle is better to hold the pelvis back in the seat. It also favors the family jewels. Google teamTech and check out the JetPilot harness. My setup is a variation of this.
Hi Eyelise,

The more time I've spend on harness-related issues, the less comfortable I am deviating from what's recommended by the manufacturer. They seem best positioned to figure out what works, what doesn't, and how to design these things to minimize their liability. I'm not arguing with you (and won't). Your setup may well be fine -- I certainly hope so, although I'd rather that none of us ever have any first hand experience finding out -- and it sounds as if you've gotten buy-in from the manufacturer of your harness for it.

Just fyi, below is text from the Schroth manual for the Profi 6-HANS harness I purchased.

PROFI 6-POINT AND HYBRID MODELS

• Anti-submarining strap routing shall be vertical down from the groin, preferably approximately 20° back.

• Anchor points shall be approximately 100 mm [4”] lateral apart from each other. In case of a a low seating position (e.g. in open wheel race
cars), this separation may be reduced since the anchor points are closer to the thighs.

Schroth does make a harness specifically intended for the routing you're using (designated by an "F"), but they make it clear that it's intended for the sorts of (highly reclined and very thin) seating you find in a formula car. The manual says:

• Anti-sub straps must not be redirected. Redirected straps, e.g. using an OE stock seat for a formula type racing harness and running the straps over the seat edges down to an anchor point, will provide extra slack during a crash and the expected performance will not result. Slack from such anti-sub strap routing will allow a buckle ride up during an accident which results in higher upper torso and head movement. This increases the risk of head impact, head and neck injuries and internal injury.

Again, just fyi in the spirit of sharing what I've read. I hope none of us ever actually need this stuff.

Best,
Twin

2005 Graphite Gray with Black Interior, Sports Package, Touring Package, Hard Top, Starshield, 6-point Schroth Harness, Fire Extinguisher, and Wiring Loom for DL-1. Otherwise bone stock -- and staying that way -- okay, okay, that's true if you ignore the Braille battery, Micro mirror, Multivex mirrors, ROTA slipstreams, RA-1s, two-piece rotors, springs, polyurethane ASB bushings, RTD brace, Sparco seat, and all the stuff I've taken out of the car...


Last edited by Evil Twin; 05-10-2006 at 06:54 AM.
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post #53 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 03:44 PM
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Seems a couple of folks have ordered Dave's anti-submarine bar. Below's a photo of some fully finished units, complete with a nice textured finish. Just posting this in case others are interested.

Best,
Twin
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2005 Graphite Gray with Black Interior, Sports Package, Touring Package, Hard Top, Starshield, 6-point Schroth Harness, Fire Extinguisher, and Wiring Loom for DL-1. Otherwise bone stock -- and staying that way -- okay, okay, that's true if you ignore the Braille battery, Micro mirror, Multivex mirrors, ROTA slipstreams, RA-1s, two-piece rotors, springs, polyurethane ASB bushings, RTD brace, Sparco seat, and all the stuff I've taken out of the car...

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post #54 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-12-2006, 06:59 AM
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Lap belt attachment points

Evil Twin & Drosen,

I've spoken to both of you about how to best attach a 6-point harness and I know have all the pieces to put it together this weekend. Thanks for your help and to this group as well! My seats have been slotted for the sub belts, and I've installed a sub bar to wrap them to.

My only concern at this point is the attachment point for the lap belt. I plan to do what Evil Twin did (and Drosen I believe) which is to put the eye-bolt through the chassis beam behind the seats, through the beam and into a backing plate. The outside eyebolt can go outside of the seat rails, BUT the inside bolt has to be inside the two rails (asymmetrical as Evil Twin pointed out). I'm OK with this, except for that the driver side seat seems to have more sheet metal where the lap belt would go, potentially stressing or cutting the webbing under load (i.e. accident).

I thought about finding an M8 backing plate, then drilling out the inside seat mount hole through the bottom, then using an M8 eye-bolt through the seat bracket, through the hole, into the backing plate. This would keep the belt away from the seat enough to miss the metal I'm talking about, but I'm not to happy with having to drill out the standard seat mounting holes, and I would be concerned about the strength of an M8 eyebolt.

what do you guys think? When you are in the driver's seat with the belts tight, do you see the metal on the left hand side which is cutting into the lap belt? Is this a concern?

Thanks!!!

-R Warden

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post #55 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-12-2006, 07:31 AM
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I cut some thin diameter rubber tubing and squeezed it over the metal you're referring to -- mainly to help prevent wear, rather than to prevent failure. I thought about cementing it in place but decided I didn't have the time/interest. To my mind, the metal edges that form the brace for the stock lapbelt mount) aren't particularly sharp and the left-side belt doesn't bend over them at any sort of a hard angle (particularly b/c it's bolt is mounted outside of the seatrail), and the angle will relax under load, so I just dismissed this concern as not being worth addressing. But that's my opinion, and I don't claim to be qualified to provide any definitive answers for others (although I am happy to share what I learn and try to be clear about what I conclude). I would NOT replace the M8 seatbolt with a longer, eye-bolt, as that's a pretty small diameter bolt and it might (I'm guessing here) interfere with your seat travel. I'm told that some, in Europe, have replaced that M8 bolt with something more substantial, but my preferences were to leave Lotus' work alone and augment, rather than replace or reengineer, their work when installing mine. Just a thought. There are probably lots of reasonable solutions to these issues.

Twin

2005 Graphite Gray with Black Interior, Sports Package, Touring Package, Hard Top, Starshield, 6-point Schroth Harness, Fire Extinguisher, and Wiring Loom for DL-1. Otherwise bone stock -- and staying that way -- okay, okay, that's true if you ignore the Braille battery, Micro mirror, Multivex mirrors, ROTA slipstreams, RA-1s, two-piece rotors, springs, polyurethane ASB bushings, RTD brace, Sparco seat, and all the stuff I've taken out of the car...

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post #56 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-12-2006, 03:36 PM
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Sub bar

Hi everyone,
I built Evil Twin's sub harness bar, the bar weighs in at 350 grams or 12.3 oz. this is with paint so an oiled version like shown in the first thread is lighter, but I am not sure how much.

I made some extra, so if you are interested send me an e-mail. I am selling them for $100 each, or $180 for 2.

Feel free to direct any questions to me, can also make the parts in titanium if you desire lighter and more expensive parts.

2006 Elise with BOE 400 supercharger and some aero mods, CRF floating oversized rotors, MCS single adjust coil overs, CRF exhaust, CRF sway bar w/adjustable link, mono-ball pivots, machined steer arms, baffled oil pan, CRF titanium toe link brace, hardened motor mounts, Ethos wheels w/Yoko slicks
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post #57 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-14-2006, 07:41 AM
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Here is a photo of my lap belt attachment using the rally bracket.

Dan
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post #58 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-14-2006, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drosen
Attachment 28225

Here is a photo of my lap belt attachment using the rally bracket.

Dan
Wow, that is a nice option. Where did you get them? Is the bolt the same size as a standard eyebolt?
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post #59 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-14-2006, 12:56 PM
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Yes. Used a 7/16" x 1.5" fine tread bolt that fit the Scroth base plate.

Dan
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post #60 of 148 (permalink) Old 05-14-2006, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drosen
Yes. Used a 7/16" x 1.5" fine tread bolt that fit the Scroth base plate.

Dan
Did you have the ralley brackets sewn into your lap belts? Did the harness manufacturer offer it as an option?
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