Safety Equipment Thread - Page 6 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #101 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bleu Omdurman View Post
Hey guys, just finished reading the entire thread. Great info!
Hey Bleu... don't tell anyone, but mrldcty is my old alias on ET :0). That's my car in the shots above with the Reverie seats and Shroth harness. I've been very pleased with that setup and the HANS. You've seen the seat pad that I made as well. The only remaining fitment issue I have is getting the shoulder strap holes about an inch closer together so that the straps notch into the HANS better, but a number of the instructors thought it was fine as is.

Now that I've run with the HANS, EvilTwin was right... feels naked without it!

Merry Christmas!
LP
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post #102 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 01:29 PM
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Cool, thanks guys.

One of my questions is answered!

The other one is can I use a 6pt harness for the time being without the bottom two points? I think the answer is no because the twisting function is gone.

So it seems that my best course of action is to run a NON-hans Capatible 4pt harness until I havea job and can pay for the new seat, new 6pt harness, and HANS. Think that's the best plan?

Again, cutting the stock seats is not an option for me, and finding extra money is also not in the cards.

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post #103 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lotus-Position View Post
Hey Bleu... don't tell anyone, but mrldcty is my old alias on ET :0).

Merry Christmas!
LP

ha, I think you told me that before, but I swore not to tell. Don't worry, my fingers are bound and gagged. No one will ever find out.

Merry Christmas to you and yours

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post #104 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 01:34 PM
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You are correct to not run a 6 point without the sub belts. Without the tear away feature of an ASM harness you could easily submarine and cause more problems than it would help. If you don't have the money, then get the 4-point ASM and upgrade later when you can afford a new seat and H&N device.

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post #105 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleu Omdurman View Post
Cool, thanks guys.

One of my questions is answered!

The other one is can I use a 6pt harness for the time being without the bottom two points? I think the answer is no because the twisting function is gone.

So it seems that my best course of action is to run a NON-hans Capatible 4pt harness until I havea job and can pay for the new seat, new 6pt harness, and HANS. Think that's the best plan?

Again, cutting the stock seats is not an option for me, and finding extra money is also not in the cards.
I'm not a saftey engineer or anything, but from what I understand from my research, you cannot use a HANS with the Schroth 4-point ASM harness (see the Schroth official site).

IMO, unless you intend to install a 5, 6 or 7 point harness, you should just use the OEM 3 point harness with the air bag. I think it's kind of a waste to just temporarily install an 4-point ASM harness when the 3-point/air bag system is just as good.

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post #106 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 02:13 PM
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The HANS was not designed -- nor should it be worn -- with an ASM harness. A 6-point harness without the sub-straps is a 4-point harness, and I will not wear a 4-point, period, for all the reasons Conan-the-Wise-Barbarian cited and more. Just use the stock seatbelt with a CG lock to keep you from sliding around so much. My two cents. Your life.

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post #107 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 02:31 PM
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Twin,
I was hoping you would respond. happy Holidays.

Yup, I understand about the HANS compatability. On this forum, I sometimes feel like I must not be making myself clear.

given these two options, which is safest?

1) 3pt belts no HANS, w CG lock
2) 4 pt harness no HANS.

Thanks!!

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post #108 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 02:52 PM
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Twin,
I was hoping you would respond. happy Holidays.

Yup, I understand about the HANS compatability. On this forum, I sometimes feel like I must not be making myself clear.

given these two options, which is safest?

1) 3pt belts no HANS, w CG lock
2) 4 pt harness no HANS.

Thanks!!
you're probably not going to get an answer from someone telling you which is the safest option.

as has been told to me many times... safety is a personal choice and if it were my choice for me and the two options you laid out are the only two, then i would choose the 3pt and cg locks. in fact that's what i did after i participated in a few track days with the S and knew that i wanted more. the cg locks are a cheap driver's aid... i don't know if they're more or less safe, but i know that i could concentrate more on driving and less on hanging on. i sold the cg locks to another e-talker after i was ready to install the 6-pters. net cost was maybe twenty or thirty dollars for the pair.

i'm not putting down the 4pt ASM's, for some they are an good choice, but if you intend to eventually use a HANS then they're off the pathway just a bit.

good luck with your decision.
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post #109 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 03:26 PM
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I'm not a saftey engineer or anything, but from what I understand from my research, you cannot use a HANS with the Schroth 4-point ASM harness (see the Schroth official site).
*ahem*

Not with the 4-pt ASM harnesses that we use (like Profi II) - but there are 4-pt ASM Schroth harnesses (Quick Fit Pro) that are specifically listed as HANs compatible.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45498

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post #110 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 03:38 PM
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*ahem*

Not with the 4-pt ASM harnesses that we use (like Profi II) - but there are 4-pt ASM Schroth harnesses (Quick Fit Pro) that are specifically listed as HANs compatible.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45498
My apologies. My statement was incorrect. I should have said the HANS should not be used with the Profi series of harness that fit in the Elise.

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post #111 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 03:45 PM
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you're probably not going to get an answer from someone telling you which is the safest option.

as has been told to me many times... safety is a personal choice and if it were my choice for me and the two options you laid out are the only two, then i would choose the 3pt and cg locks. in fact that's what i did after i participated in a few track days with the S and knew that i wanted more. the cg locks are a cheap driver's aid... i don't know if they're more or less safe, but i know that i could concentrate more on driving and less on hanging on. i sold the cg locks to another e-talker after i was ready to install the 6-pters. net cost was maybe twenty or thirty dollars for the pair.

i'm not putting down the 4pt ASM's, for some they are an good choice, but if you intend to eventually use a HANS then they're off the pathway just a bit.

good luck with your decision.
Ok thanks!

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post #112 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 04:45 PM
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Hi Bleu,

Thanks for the kind words. I wish you and yours a good holiday as well. Apologies if I misread your question. Time is just very short these days.

I think that what's "most safe" depends on the nature of the accident, which makes it an empirical question for which (at least in the case of the Lotus) there isn't a lot of data. So, you'll likely get different opinions, even from informed sources. I also think that there's a lot of misinformation out there about safety issues, so it makes sense to do your own homework. That said, here's my rank-order of how I'd do things:

1. 6-point harness with HANS: there's no question in my mind that this is the best solution, provided (and this is important) that everything about the installation was done properly. Geometry matters.

2. 6-point harness without HANS: but if you're gonna spend another $800 or so on your, make the HANS your next purchase.

3. 4-point ASM harness: but I admit that I've never trusted them and don't like them. Still, what I've read suggests that they work. Just be very, very careful to fully tighten your lapbelts first, as tight as you can possibly get them, and then be careful to secure the shoulder harness in such a way that you don't pull the buckle up and over your hipbones. "Submarining" isn't necessarily the result of being thrown under the lapbelts, and I think most times it happens as a result of shifting around in your harness before impact in such a way that the buckle creeps upwards off the bones (hard points on contact) and into your abdomen. Thanks to Codymac for pointing out that there are now ASM harnesses that are made to work with the HANS. I hadn't known that.

4. Stock Belt with CG Lock: you'll still slide around a lot, but I trust this option way more than I trust #5, below.

5. 4-Point Belt without ASM: I won't wear one. Under any circumstances. And I've never worn one that didn't creep over my hipbones while on the track.

Again, my two cents. Honestly, if I were you, I'd just bite the bullet and cut holes in the seat and write-off the expense to the cost of being prudent. If you do, be sure to pay strict attention to the installation instructions. I can't tell you how many crappy (and unsafe) harnesses I've seen at the track. An unsafe installation can be way more dangerous than simply sticking with the stock belts.

Hope this helps. Others may view these issues differently.

Best,
Twin

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post #113 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 05:34 PM
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Thanks for the thoughts guys.

Very good info for a new guy like me. I have about 1 year of experience now. I have made my decision with your help. Thanks again.

Now if I could just get one the guys with the harness bar to respond...

Enjoy the time with family, guys.

Trevor

Twin, I am sure I will see you at the track soon enough. Planning on a trip to one of the Northern California tracks in addition to the 3 or so trips to PIR.

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post #114 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Lotus-Position View Post
Now that I've run with the HANS, EvilTwin was right... feels naked without it!
Hey, thanks for the affirmation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleu Omdurman View Post
Twin, I am sure I will see you at the track soon enough. Planning on a trip to one of the Northern California tracks in addition to the 3 or so trips to PIR.
Keep me posted. I typically do 2-3 trips to NoCal or Nevada each year and about the same at Pacific Raceways. For the NoCal trips, I typically try to recruit a few PacNW folks to come along, as it's always more fun playing with folks you know.

ET

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post #115 of 148 (permalink) Old 12-18-2007, 05:53 PM
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What is the story with these head and neck restraints?







I have had to get out of a car that was on fire and I don't think I like the idea of having to fumble around both sides of my head while undoing the harness to get out of the car.

It also looks like it would do some serious damage to your collar bone in a crash.

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post #116 of 148 (permalink) Old 03-24-2008, 05:02 AM
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grommets for sub belts? were might i find one?

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post #117 of 148 (permalink) Old 03-24-2008, 05:15 AM
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grommets for sub belts? were might i find one?
I think everybody that has modified their stock seats for sub belts has just cut a hole and had it trimmed out by an upholstery shop. My seat are being done at a shop right now. They also really wanted to put a grommet in there but they could not find anything with the right dimensions.

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post #118 of 148 (permalink) Old 03-24-2008, 05:25 AM
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I think everybody that has modified their stock seats for sub belts has just cut a hole and had it trimmed out by an upholstery shop. My seat are being done at a shop right now. They also really wanted to put a grommet in there but they could not find anything with the right dimensions.
thats what the threads are saying, i was kinda hoping maybe some one by now has sources a solution.

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post #119 of 148 (permalink) Old 03-24-2008, 06:05 AM
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thats what the threads are saying, i was kinda hoping maybe some one by now has sources a solution.
i think anything short of a sewn-liner is potentially not a good thing. due to the interference with the frame croassbar and the thickness of the seat padding, i think it would be nearly impossible for a standardized part to work very well. i wouldn't want this grommet (that's between my legs) to work its way loose.

my upholsterer installed a really thick leather liner in the hole. i asked him to leave the bottom side (under the seat) free so that i could use it as padding for the antisub straps against the seat frame crossbar.
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post #120 of 148 (permalink) Old 03-24-2008, 06:12 AM
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i guess then that is my only solution.. what a pain in the ass.

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