Another wiped Cam but a bit different! - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 05:27 PM
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I pulled the valve cover and I see that the lobes on my cams are not scored. Good news for sure. But, there are two small areas along the line where the cover seats to the block that appear to have a bit of silicone type sealant. The areas are located in front of the timing chain just below the oil drain hose and another is just behind the timing chain. The sealant in both areas surrounds little square holes. I circled the material in red. Two of the photos have arrows showing where a bit of sealant is missing, as I peeled off a bit of it.

Does anyone know what the material is, why it is applied in just those two limited areas, and whether I need to apply new sealant now that I removed and replace the cover?

I never posted photos before and I'm having a little trouble. I can't seem to insert text between the photos and the pictures will post only side by side. I'm doing the best I can here. And the pictures are little fuzzy because my camera won't focus as close in as I had to get for the material to be visible. Sorry about that, as well.
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post #22 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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That's where the front cover meets head. The factory puts a "dab" (technical term) of gasket maker there. No need to worry. Just bolt the cover back on and you'll be fine. If you're feeling real particular about it, you could apply a "dab" of gasket maker there as well to ensure that you won't have any oil leak there. I've had mine off a bunch and never had a leak form... Your call. In summary, nothing too crucial or needing to be particularly sensitive to...

Best,

Phil


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post #23 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 05:58 PM
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That little black bit looks like some Toyota Black aka black silicon sealer. It's used on the edges where a rubber gasket meets an odd edge to prevent oil leaks from the cams. Having a oil leak from the circled locations are common on many toyota engines such as the 4age, 3sgte, and 1zz as an example.

Back to the issue of cams what was the cause of the cam destruction? Is it a lack of lubrication on the cams? Not being driven enough that the oil sludge's up in the valve cover? Infrequent oil changes? Or lastly using too thin of an oil that it doesn't stay on the cams enough?

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post #24 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Back to the issue of cams what was the cause of the cam destruction? Is it a lack of lubrication on the cams? Not being driven enough that the oil sludge's up in the valve cover? Infrequent oil changes? Or lastly using too thin of an oil that it doesn't stay on the cams enough?
None of the above. It's a surface hardening issue. AKA, the cams were not properly hardened from the factory.

Cheers,

Phil

Edit- It could be a lash issue- but I'm doubting that... I was just inspecting my cams and I've got early signs or wear on one my cam lobes and it lashes out correctly... I'm building a new engine anyway so not such a big deal for me...


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Last edited by turbophil; 10-19-2008 at 06:39 PM.
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post #25 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 07:01 PM
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So, assuming you're correct, can one have the stock cams hardened before anything goes bad.?

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post #26 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
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see post 15


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post #27 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Phoenix SRT View Post
If an engine has this problem and nothing is done about it, what are the symptoms and what will eventually happen?
Some guys have reported a very noticable "ticking" noise as one of the symptoms. Check out post 14 in this link; there is a video and you can hear the ticking:

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/t...-engine-40743/
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post #28 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-19-2008, 10:19 PM
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I have been told by an engineer that has seen a lot of 2ZZ engines that the reason for high lift cam lobe wear and rocker post failure is from sticking valves.

He advises that engine should not be stressed until oil temp is 60c. He tells me that Toyota, in other applications of this engine, have changed the engine (water) temperature point at which the high lift cam change can take place to 80c (my Elise can change at 74c) and that he believes the Toyota reason for this is to avoid sticking valves.

I have installed an oil temp gauge and note that when engine (water) temp reaches 74c that the oil temp can be less than 40c. It takes about another few minutes before oil reaches 60c.

I now wait until oil temp reaches 60c before going to high lift cam.
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post #29 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 08:15 AM
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That's where the front cover meets head. The factory puts a "dab" (technical term) of gasket maker there. No need to worry. Just bolt the cover back on and you'll be fine. If you're feeling real particular about it, you could apply a "dab" of gasket maker there as well to ensure that you won't have any oil leak there. I've had mine off a bunch and never had a leak form... Your call. In summary, nothing too crucial or needing to be particularly sensitive to...

Best,

Phil

Thanks for the info. Things are already reassembled, so I'll just leave it and see if it leaks.

If it ends up leaking, what sealant should I use (an RTV silicone gasket maker, presumably) and how do I go about putting a dab of sealant around the small rectangular holes without plugging the holes? It looks like the dab was applied at the factory right over the holes but that the holes didn't end up being plugged. How did that happen and what are those holes for, anyway? The holes are presumably sealed off by the valve cover gasket once the valve cover is in place, so do they serve any purpose?

BTW, your instructions to pull the cover made things very easy and with the engine manual to give me the torque specs for reassembly, things couldn't have been much simpler. That oil drain hose is a bit of PITA, though. Too bad it's not a bit flexible.
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post #30 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Use Gray RTV gasket maker from the parts store. It's the "semi-solid" variety... Same stuff is used on the oil pan and front cover where needed.

There's no problem blocking the holes. Just a simple dab where the two parts meet is all that is needed and there's no crucial hole to leave exposed/uncovered, etc... It's really that simple...

Best,

Phil


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post #31 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 08:33 AM
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Phil,

I think it's been mentioned before, could it be a valve clearance issue? An overly tight clearance causing excessive pressure and thus wear? Perhaps not the best time for accuracy, but did you measure the clearance on the bad cams?

Don't know how feasible or expensive, but it would be the end-all of speculation if a bad & good cam were sent to a facility to test the lobe hardness. (sounds kinky doesn't it )

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post #32 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 08:37 AM
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Additionally, the broken rocker supports the theory of an out of spec lash. It would *seem* that a hardening issue would effect the other lobes as well.

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post #33 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 08:43 AM
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A LT member calls me the other day with MIL 1301. I tell him not to drive it until I look at the cams. Today I pulled the valve cover to find what I was fearful of. 2, yes, 2 wiped cam lobes This time not # 3. It was # 2 and #4. I've always suspected that the problem is a hardening issue rather than lubrication and I believe this adds to that story. #1 and #3 looked perfect. Upon further inspection I found that the #2 rocker shaft was broken off as seen in the pics. Notice the galling and thin surface hardening on the first pic...

This is stock car that rarely if ever sees redline and is regularly serviced with 30K miles...

Here are the pics...

Jsut thought I would add this one to the list

Best,

Phil
Thanks for posting this, Phil. I've mentioned before, in a number of posts, that the problem is NOT limited to cylinder #3. When mine happened, I had significant wear on the cams on three cylinders. My car was one of the early ones to have the problem and I saw the camshaft and the one broken rocker arm at the dealer. At the time, there weren't any posts about this issue and I didn't note which cylinders were involved, only that the good one was on the end of the camshaft (could be #1 or #4 -- I suspected afterward that it was #1 because it would be the furthest from cylinder #3, but I really do not know this for sure).

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post #34 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 08:45 AM
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Phil,

Would you mind posting what # car this was? With enough data we may be able to figure out what range of cars was affected.

I'm almost scared to remove my valve cover as I'm way out of warranty. I haven't seen a really early car (like mine) on the list of bad ones yet...
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post #35 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
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John-

I hear ya... I have two reasons for questioning that logic.

1- I've got a cam lobe that's not looking too good (no broken rocker yet) and there's acceptable lash on it...

More importantly, 2- Walk with me So the wiper is spring loaded until it becomes fixed from the VVL action, right?
Well if the lash were too tight, wouldn't it simply bottom out the spring loaded wiper and force the rocker down, thus opening the valves a tad (just like in a "normal" engine)? Obviously the rocker is strong enough to open the valves since that's what it's designed to do.
Tight lash should simply mean that the valves hang open a bit-- I believe that's consequence of tight lash on these engines as well... If that were the case we would be getting intake reversion and possible burnt valve seats too, right? That's what happens on "normal" engines anyway...

I think the reason the the rocker breaks is do the sharper point that is created on the lobe from the wiping (rather than a smooth radius). The point would subsequently create a sharp increase in pressure- almost like a hammering effect (pressure spike), rather than smooth increase in load like the normal cam lobe would apply... Consistant with that theory, the subsequent "hammering" or pressure spike is what breaks the rocker arm...

That's the best theory I can come up with so far... It really looks like a hardening issue more than anything else, IMO...

Thoughts?

Best,

Phil


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post #36 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 09:55 AM
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You could be correct, maybe we'll know if two cams are sent to a lab for testing.

My thoughts are that a tight lash is fine when on the small cam. But once the rocker arm is pressurized with oil and the slipper locks open, the tolerance is too tight and causes excessive pressure & wear on the large lobe.

There is upward pressure on the valves during compression and this combined with the tight tolerance, when VVT is activated, may cause increased pressure on the cam lobe and wear. It's all theory, I could be way off base. There are other variables, such as valve springs, etc.

When adjusting my lash, I set my valve tolerances at the high end of the recommended range (increased clearance). BTW, my cams are perfect at 9k miles, no detectable wear. I'll check them in 2k miles and see how the look.

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post #37 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 10:21 AM
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Phil,

Would you mind posting what # car this was? With enough data we may be able to figure out what range of cars was affected.

I'm almost scared to remove my valve cover as I'm way out of warranty. I haven't seen a really early car (like mine) on the list of bad ones yet...
How early is your car? I had the problem with VIN 0831.

Alan

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post #38 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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I don't know the VIN. It's a very early 05 car... it had the old hex shaft shifter as a point of reference... So what's that make it-- pre May 05 production if memory serves correctly...

Best,

Phil


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post #39 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 02:59 PM
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I have a simple solution.

Send a head core and full MWR head parts to Boosted2.0, let him port the mofo, install piper stage 3 cams, have it sent back, and drop it in .

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post #40 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 03:03 PM
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I have a simple solution.

Send a head core and full MWR head parts to Boosted2.0, let him port the mofo, install piper stage 3 cams, have it sent back, and drop it in .


And what about tuning? You will need an EFI or comparable solution, then proper tuning which we all know can be a pain in the ass, and then you're talking big $$$ that not everyone cares to spend!

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