Another wiped Cam but a bit different! - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #41 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 05:58 PM
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I finally pulled my valve cover off today to check.
Here are two pictures of what my lobe on #3 looks like:
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Overall they don't look too bad yet (you can't feel any unevenness in the lobe surface yet), but then they also don't look as good as what I'd expect after 15K...
Good cam, or bad cam...
I have an appointment with the guys at Gran Turismo in Portland to get my chassis resealed for the second time since I still have water pouring into the footwell area when I drive in the rain.
I'll show them the pictures and see what they say...

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post #42 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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You can see some galling starting on the left side oft he lobe, but it may be nothing in the long run...

Our friends across the pond feel that it has to do with oil temps--- or lack there of I guess Lotus has a newer flash that prevents high lift until the engine is at 80C or about 176F and they (lotus or Toyota) feels that adjustment will curb this cam wiping issue. Someone mentioned that the Celica ECU don't allow high lift until 180F. Anyone know if that's right? They certainly don't have the cam issues we do... Perhaps there's something to this oil temp issue...

It would be interesting to interview all those that have wiped cams and see if they warmed the car up to full temps before going to high lift even though the ECU will let you at 158F (70c) or so...

For those with some miles on your car and still have good cams (original issue), do you warm up your car to full operating temps before high lift or do you hit high lift the second the temps show on the dash?

Cheers,

Phil


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post #43 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Okay everyone... vote in the poll

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/h...e-temps-63586/

Cheers,

Phil


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post #44 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-20-2008, 10:27 PM
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Ok here's mine from a couple of hours ago (cylinder 4, intake then exhaust):

There are no ridges or rough edges or flat spots. Rockers are fine.

All the other cylinder lobes look squeaky clean just like this...
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post #45 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
You can see some galling starting on the left side oft he lobe, but it may be nothing in the long run...

Our friends across the pond feel that it has to do with oil temps--- or lack there of I guess Lotus has a newer flash that prevents high lift until the engine is at 80C or about 176F and they (lotus or Toyota) feels that adjustment will curb this cam wiping issue. Someone mentioned that the Celica ECU don't allow high lift until 180F. Anyone know if that's right? They certainly don't have the cam issues we do... Perhaps there's something to this oil temp issue...

It would be interesting to interview all those that have wiped cams and see if they warmed the car up to full temps before going to high lift even though the ECU will let you at 158F (70c) or so...

For those with some miles on your car and still have good cams (original issue), do you warm up your car to full operating temps before high lift or do you hit high lift the second the temps show on the dash?

Cheers,

Phil
We've got over 50,000 and I hammer it whenever I can. When it is cold outside it registers 159 about 30 seconds before I run it to red line in 2nd, 3rd, and sometimes 4th.

I may have to bring that over to look at sometime. It might be interesting to compare the engines. To do that I need to get it back from the bodyshop.

FWIW, ours is also an early 05 build.

07 ExigeS;05 Elise(RIP);06 V70R;12 JKUR

Last edited by jlj3394; 10-21-2008 at 04:34 AM.
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post #46 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
You can see some galling starting on the left side oft he lobe, but it may be nothing in the long run...

Our friends across the pond feel that it has to do with oil temps--- or lack there of I guess Lotus has a newer flash that prevents high lift until the engine is at 80C or about 176F and they (lotus or Toyota) feels that adjustment will curb this cam wiping issue. Someone mentioned that the Celica ECU don't allow high lift until 180F. Anyone know if that's right? They certainly don't have the cam issues we do... Perhaps there's something to this oil temp issue...

It would be interesting to interview all those that have wiped cams and see if they warmed the car up to full temps before going to high lift even though the ECU will let you at 158F (70c) or so...

For those with some miles on your car and still have good cams (original issue), do you warm up your car to full operating temps before high lift or do you hit high lift the second the temps show on the dash?

Cheers,

Phil
Bingo, Phil. I think the oil temp theory is on the money. On some of the other high perf. car forums, oil temp is frequently implicated in rocker failure and wiped cams. On the C6 Z06 (LS7) engine, the conventional wisdom is to never expose the car to high revs until you see over 150F on oil temps, and and it has an oil temp gauge. Oil temp lags way behind water temp, especially in an oil cooler-equipped car.

On my Z06, I never nailed it until I saw 180F oil temps, which can take a bit of time in an oil cooler-equipped car. In my very early 05 Elise (#369), I don't get near 7000 until I've run a good 20-30 minutes. In my Audi RS4, there is a message on the panel that warns against anything over 7K RPMs until it reaches a certain oil temp.

I've never had a problem on a high-lift cam, and I'm convinced proper oil temps are a very important preventative measure in this regard. It's hard to push enough oil to that part of the engine when the viscosity is low at colder temps.
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post #47 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 05:29 AM
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I never got over 4000rpm until the water temp guage was showing at least 180F, then restricted myself to 6000 for another couple of minutes at least.

Repeat: Never. Not once.

Result: Bad cam and broken rocker.

xtn

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post #48 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by xtn View Post
I never got over 4000rpm until the water temp guage was showing at least 180F, then restricted myself to 6000 for another couple of minutes at least.

Repeat: Never. Not once.

Result: Bad cam and broken rocker.

xtn
We're just theorizing here, but another "couple of minutes" after you saw 180F probably isn't enough to get you over 150F on the oil temp. As I was trying to illustrate with my Z06 example. It often took 15 minutes or more to get there AFTER I saw 194+ coolant temps. I could drive 40 minutes to work on the highway and NEVER get there on a cold day.

I don't have any data on the 2ZZ Lotus application due to the lack of an oil temp gauge.

Ironically, oil coolers aren't necessarily your friend in cars that see primarily street duty and short trips. Many people would be better off disconnecting them, because they'd get the oil up to temp faster for the type of driving people do on the street.
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post #49 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 06:24 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtn View Post
I never got over 4000rpm until the water temp guage was showing at least 180F, then restricted myself to 6000 for another couple of minutes at least.

Repeat: Never. Not once.

Result: Bad cam and broken rocker.

xtn
Good info X... this is what I was worried about... Either the design is simply poor and was designed too close to failure, or the hardening process is faulty from cam to cam... It would be cool to x ray the cams to see how thick and what variation there is in the hardening on some of the bad cams vs. a good one... Any dentists out there that want to x-ray some metal parts

Cheers,

Phil


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2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #50 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by xtn View Post
I never got over 4000rpm until the water temp guage was showing at least 180F, then restricted myself to 6000 for another couple of minutes at least.

Repeat: Never. Not once.

Result: Bad cam and broken rocker.

xtn


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post #51 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 11:35 AM
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Since you're all pulling down the panties on your cars, I thought I'd join in on the fun. Lobes and rockers look great - nice, smooth, and score-free for an early '05. Must admit, I get on my car the minute the ECU allows high cam...no problems here.

PS: Don't forget to check the oil jets for obstruction or improper drilling. There's been more than one owner whose reported that some of the holes were not pointing correctly...sure fire way to have problems.
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post #52 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 12:23 PM
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Dave, from the pictures above, I swear your nether-regions look the exact same as mine. I feel much better now!

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post #53 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 01:51 PM
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And what about tuning? You will need an EFI or comparable solution, then proper tuning which we all know can be a pain in the ass, and then you're talking big $$$ that not everyone cares to spend!
That's not entirely true. First of all, you can run it off the stock ECU. Second of all, Kverges is a turbocharged Lotus owner running off the emanage ultimate piggyback ECU, and dustylax's current rotrex project is expected to be run off a piggyback ECU as well. The emanage ultimate can be ordered for about $540, and the AEM F/IC can be had for around $395.

As for variable valve timing tuning and lowering lift, the Greddy v-manage can take care of that, and you can pick them up for $509 with the STI duel adapter necessary to work on 2zz's:

GReddy V-Manage - Subaru STi 04-06 (EJ25 AVCS): Evasive Motorsports - PH: 626.336.3400, M-F 9am - 5pm PST

So all in all, your OBD-II compliant programmable ECU setup will only cost $905-$1050, about 1/3 to 1/4 the price it takes to get the EFI to work on your 05 or 06+ DBW vehicles, and still do the same damn job. And if you're worried that adding the v-manage with the AEM F/IC would be troublesome since it sincs up with the emanage ultimate, just look at how VVT-i is tuned in the first place:

How To: Tune VVT on the Power FC - NewCelica.org Forum

As you can see, it seems that fuel and ignition timing should be dialed in first before dynoing all the different loads of VVT-i settings, and mixing together all the settings at different RPM breakpoints that provide the most power. So whether you use the Power Enterprise CAMCON VVT-i piggyback ECU or the V-manage (which can also allow you to lower LIFT), the process will be the same. So technically you can tune for all the gains you want with a Boosted2.0 Ported Head + MWR Upgraded Head Parts + Piper Stage 3 Cam setup without spending all that money on the EFI. I'd love to see a before and after dyno of one setup tuned on the Greddy Emanage Ultimate/AEM FIC + Greddy V-manage versus a standalone ECU tune.

I will be using the v-manage in the near future since I bought the unit jlitman was going to use. I'm just waiting for my friend to fix his tire, recharge his dead battery, and bring his greddy supercharged car over for the parts swap process and turn his car back to stock. Hopefully, I'll post up some nice, cheap, non-standalone ECU, OBD-II compliant dynos that's tuned on the greddy emanage ultimate + v-manage piggyback ECUs...which should work on your cars based on the fact that kverges is still driving around his turbo'd Elise on the greddy emanage ultimate.

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Maybe you should put a disclaimer in your sig saying that you don't have a Lotus nor have tried any of the products you are constantly posting about.
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post #54 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 03:12 PM
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PS: Don't forget to check the oil jets for obstruction or improper drilling. There's been more than one owner whose reported that some of the holes were not pointing correctly...sure fire way to have problems.
In my discussions with them, Lotus dismissed that could not contribute to the failures since the holes are 'only 5mm away from the cam'.
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post #55 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-21-2008, 06:23 PM
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I spoke with Nick Adams at the LOG in Colorado a year ago. while looking at the 2-Eleven, I asked about the oil accumulator (accusump) and the oil cooler thermostat sandwich plate. He said both were a good upgrade for and Elise (and also my Esprit).

And the thermostat was almost necessary in a car driven in the cold.

I'm actually putting a Mocal (MOCTB3) oil cooler thermostat sandwich plate in my Esprit to help oil temps come up faster (82C) in all conditions.

A similar one, if not the same, should work in the Elise to replace the oil cooler sandwich plate (non-thermostat) that comes with the car.

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post #56 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-22-2008, 06:49 AM
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What did the dealer tell you?
The service manager told me I had a 13,000 rpm rev, and that Lotus would not cover it.

I tried to explain all the logical reasons why he should disregard that 13,000 rpm rev, including primarily the fact that my oil pump, crank shaft, rods, pistons, valves, crank case, various engine-driven accessories, etc., were all still attached to the car and functioning as designed. He wouldn't buy it though; the ECM showed me revving to 13,000 rpm, and that was that.

The honorable Judge Simkin - of Lotus USA - was more agreeable with my position, and kindly set the service manager straight for me.

xtn

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post #57 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-22-2008, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by xtn View Post
The service manager told me I had a 13,000 rpm rev, and that Lotus would not cover it.

I tried to explain all the logical reasons why he should disregard that 13,000 rpm rev, including primarily the fact that my oil pump, crank shaft, rods, pistons, valves, crank case, various engine-driven accessories, etc., were all still attached to the car and functioning as designed. He wouldn't buy it though; the ECM showed me revving to 13,000 rpm, and that was that.

The honorable Judge Simkin - of Lotus USA - was more agreeable with my position, and kindly set the service manager straight for me.

xtn

I'm glad it worked out. Thank goodness there's still some good, honest people out there.

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post #58 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-22-2008, 11:10 AM
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id recomend getting the stg 2 cams... i absolutly love them, and im still on stock ecu untuned..
and in a small car like the lotus the new aquiered torque down low will feel awsome.
but to get the most out of the cams u should get a ported TB then it will come alive. (:


sorry to hear about everyones cam wear.. ):
i havnt heard of any wear on the celica.. so couldnt u change the valve cover over to the celicas/matrix valve cover?
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post #59 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-22-2008, 12:33 PM
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I would think the clam must come off (tilt up, etc) for rocker shafts as I just don't think there's enough room to slide them out with the clam on, but I dunno for sure. The cams would be a fairly easy, yet time consuming, operation with clam on though...

Best,

Phil
With the clam on, the rocker shaft can be slid out far enough (usually doesn't wear so no need to remove it) to remove all the rockers. The only thing that has to be moved is the coolant reservoir which would have to be moved whether the clam was in place or not. The only thing that gets in the way is the frame tube behind the coolant reservoir mount so if for some reason you need to remove the rocker shaft, you will have to remove the motor mounts to shift the engine to gain clearance. All the rockers should be replaced when a new cam is installed (they come with the cam as a set when you purchase a cam) or you will not get the proper wear in between the parts. Both the cam and rockers can be replaced with the clam in position and the engine lid removed--it really isn't that hard to do, but obviously, your tilting clam set up is the way to go for performing any work on the engine!

If anyone needs the particulars on the procedure to do the cam and rockers with the clam in place, feel free to PM me.

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post #60 of 287 (permalink) Old 10-22-2008, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Oil temp lags way behind water temp, especially in an oil cooler-equipped car.
I was under the impression that most/all street car oil coolers had a thermostat mechanism in them to assist in getting the oil up to temp when it's cold, and that the oil/water heat exchangers actually act to assist in heating the oil when it's cold, because as you've said, the oil temp usually lags behind the water temps..

Am i mistaken by believing this?

dave

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