DRS has tested Ferrea rockers - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-16-2015, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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DRS has tested Ferrea rockers

DRS has been working closely with Ferrea Racing to help develop this new product that has revolutionized the 2ZZ engine. Ferrea chose to work with DRS because of our extensive experience with race engine development and our success with wheel-to-wheel racing Lotus cars with the 2ZZ engine.



We have tested these rockers in extreme duty conditions with sequential gearbox utilizing no-lift shift and clutch-less downshifts. We have extensive data that has exposed the limitations of the stock rocker design and construction in these types of racing conditions. Rapid deceleration during clutch-less downshifts, even with Auto-Blip, is beyond what the OEM rocker can handle. While others are simply selling parts on a website, we have actually taken the time to test these products so that our customers can race with confidence.


  • Light weight aluminum construction
  • Implements a true roller design
  • Less friction and reduced parasitic loss
  • Works with all existing 2ZZ cam profiles
  • Eliminates the VVL function (aka cam switch-over)
  • Enables use of Ferrea dual-valve spring for enhanced valve control



- See more at: Ferrea Rocker Set for 2ZZ
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-17-2015, 06:04 AM
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Hi Kris sounds fantastic can you please explain why would want to eliminate the VVL function ? Thanks


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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-17-2015, 02:50 PM
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Darn, I was hoping these would be streatable, but without the vvl it sounds like it is a race spec product.

07 Exige Phantom Black
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 01:20 PM
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Yeah eliminating VVL probably takes them out of consideration for Autox folks too...

@275 Turbo its for track day folks who can stay in a narrow band of revs continuously I think. If your revs don't change too much you don't need VVTLi... The point of VVTLi is to be able to optimize the timing for more than one section of the rev band (If I understand these things correctly, IANAET, correct me if I misunderstand).

Note that he's talking about sequential, no clutch transmissions... probably with closely spaced gears to keep the revs up.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by fsparv View Post
Yeah eliminating VVL probably takes them out of consideration for Autox folks too...

@275 Turbo its for track day folks who can stay in a narrow band of revs continuously I think. If your revs don't change too much you don't need VVTLi... The point of VVTLi is to be able to optimize the timing for more than one section of the rev band (If I understand these things correctly, IANAET, correct me if I misunderstand).

Note that he's talking about sequential, no clutch transmissions... probably with closely spaced gears to keep the revs up.
That's not entirely correct in our testing. There's another thread on this. Have a look.

-Phil
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-22-2015, 01:58 PM
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It's easy to forget that the car has VVT, too.


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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 275 Turbo View Post
Hi Kris sounds fantastic can you please explain why would want to eliminate the VVL function ? Thanks


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Unfortunately, the VVL implementation is part of the problem (with reliability). There are several issues with the OEM rocker itself that yield it not suitable for long term racing use.
  • The cast iron assembly is brittle
  • The VVL pad and cam lobes are too similar in metallurgy (hence the accelerated wear)
  • The OEM part is heavy (making the valve springs work that much harder to keep the valves under control)

By eliminating the VVL the system is much simpler.

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
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It's easy to forget that the car has VVT, too.


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Correct

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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Darn, I was hoping these would be streatable, but without the vvl it sounds like it is a race spec product.
This really depends on the cam profile, and a lot of other factors pertaining to the engine that will influence how streetable it can be. It would be just like any other engine that doesn't have a V-TEC-like system and has a moderate to radical cam installed. The more aggressive the cam the more 'lopy' the idle will be. How it drives in the mid range and top end can be altered still by the VVT (which remains completely functional).

We used to do a lot of street and race engines before we worked on 2ZZs with an array of cam profiles.

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-22-2017, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
That's not entirely correct in our testing. There's another thread on this. Have a look.

-Phil
Hey Phil... missed your reply. That sounds interesting. Which thread should I look at?

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-22-2017, 10:53 PM
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With the elimination of the VVL feature, you loose power band width. If the stock(ish) cams are used, the low end power is sacrificed which equals driveability is sacrificed. Because of the way a positive displacement supercharger (like the roots type) works, you can "fill" that low end gap (read that as compromise the rest of the engine's potential) with tuning. Is that a worthwhile tradeoff for OEM wiped cams? There are aftermarket rockers/cams readily available that effectively eliminate the cam wiping without sacrificing low end performance, yet increasing overall performance.

The Ferrea rockers are shiny and colorful, but nobody can see them when installed...so that's not a plus.

Also, eliminating the VVL functionality is NOT compatible with naturally aspirated engines or high volume/low pressure forced induction like turbochargers or Rotrax superchargers but can be made to work with ONLY a roots type blower because of the way they work. Ah, no thanks, I'll pass.

If we take a look at the duty cycle of a grocery getter or a soccer mom minivan, that is exactly what the OEMs design for...99% of all automobiles sold. That is exactly why the OEMs choose the roots type blowers to "force" up the output for "sportier" models of the "grocery getter". But is that the duty cycle of a true sports car steeped in F1 heritage? Not only NO, but hell no! Too many compromises for my Lotus. Just because this was an economic compromise that Lotus chose, doesn't mean I have to live it. After all, two wrongs don't make a right.

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
There are aftermarket rockers/cams readily available that effectively eliminate the cam wiping without sacrificing low end performance, yet increasing overall performance.
Besides Ferrea, what aftermarket rockers are available? I know BOE has an aftermarket cam in stock profile available (Piper?).
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 10:16 AM
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As I've written before, losing the VVL on this motor isn't a problem on any of the positive displacement blowers like the M62 of the Exige, TVS of REV300/400, or the huge twin screw we use in the REVX setup. Actual experience with these rockers shows no notable loss in low end "grunt" and benefits throughout most of the power range above ~3,000 RPM or so. Safe to assume they have less frictional loss compared the OE wiper. Objectively, they have significant'y different ramp/lift speeds to stock since you're on a smaller radius roller bearing rather a wiper.

Further testing over the last couple years shows that a dual valve spring like that from Ferrea is required to preserve camshaft integrity at the new harmonics of the solid setup.


-Phil


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 10:17 AM
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Besides Ferrea, what aftermarket rockers are available? I know BOE has an aftermarket cam in stock profile available (Piper?).
There are some worked over stock rockers, but I've not seen the value in them at this point...

-Phil


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-26-2017, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TedR View Post
Besides Ferrea, what aftermarket rockers are available? I know BOE has an aftermarket cam in stock profile available (Piper?).
eliseracing

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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-26-2017, 05:39 AM
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As I've written before, losing the VVL on this motor isn't a problem on any of the positive displacement blowers like the M62 of the Exige, TVS of REV300/400, or the huge twin screw we use in the REVX setup. Actual experience with these rockers shows no notable loss in low end "grunt" and benefits throughout most of the power range above ~3,000 RPM or so. Safe to assume they have less frictional loss compared the OE wiper. Objectively, they have significant'y different ramp/lift speeds to stock since you're on a smaller radius roller bearing rather a wiper.

Further testing over the last couple years shows that a dual valve spring like that from Ferrea is required to preserve camshaft integrity at the new harmonics of the solid setup.


-Phil
Hmmm...conflicting information...

https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/22344/

Ferrea’s VVL eliminator rockers are recommended only for race-only engines. Without the VVL functionality idle will be MUCH rougher and power from 0-6000rpm will be decreased significantly in naturally aspirated engines. Supercharged and turbocharged engines will see power losses under ~5000rpm. Obviously custom tuning is needed so you will need an aftermarket programmable ECU like the SSC PIP (Lotus) or MWR AEM EMS4, Apexi Power FC for Toyota applications.

Are you building a 10,000 rpm road race engine? These rockers are for you.

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-26-2017, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
Hmmm...conflicting information...

https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/22344/

Ferrea’s VVL eliminator rockers are recommended only for race-only engines. Without the VVL functionality idle will be MUCH rougher and power from 0-6000rpm will be decreased significantly in naturally aspirated engines. Supercharged and turbocharged engines will see power losses under ~5000rpm. Obviously custom tuning is needed so you will need an aftermarket programmable ECU like the SSC PIP (Lotus) or MWR AEM EMS4, Apexi Power FC for Toyota applications.

Are you building a 10,000 rpm road race engine? These rockers are for you.
Phil can correct me on any of this if I'm wrong...but they bump the idle RPM up to 1200 to solve the rough idle issue. They also say these aren't recommended for NA motors. Power losses under 5000 rpm? I've never noticed any sort of "lag" with my car, and BOE has dyno sheets for comparison.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-26-2017, 08:17 AM
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Hmmm...conflicting information...

https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/22344/

Ferrea’s VVL eliminator rockers are recommended only for race-only engines. Without the VVL functionality idle will be MUCH rougher and power from 0-6000rpm will be decreased significantly in naturally aspirated engines. Supercharged and turbocharged engines will see power losses under ~5000rpm. Obviously custom tuning is needed so you will need an aftermarket programmable ECU like the SSC PIP (Lotus) or MWR AEM EMS4, Apexi Power FC for Toyota applications.

Are you building a 10,000 rpm road race engine? These rockers are for you.
JJ- Give it a rest. We've built and tuned many of these motors with solid rockers. they're a nice pick for the supercharged motors. Very little downside and several upsides...

Virtually nobody build 10,000RPM 2ZZs, so not sure what the above is about. the motors have what I presume is a resonate frequency around 10-10500 anyway. Those who have over revved the motor and seen the very specific outcome in that range will know what i mean.

-Phil


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2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

____________________________________________

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BOE ClamHinge | BOE TVS SuperCharging, The Most Powerful Track-Worthy Forced Induction | EFI Engine Management | BOE The Essential Fuel Starve Solution| BOE Lotus Tow Package| BOE New-Tech Lotus Race Engines | The Right Oil Filter for Your Lotus | Custom Lotus ECU Tuning


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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-26-2017, 08:20 AM
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Phil can correct me on any of this if I'm wrong...but they bump the idle RPM up to 1200 to solve the rough idle issue. They also say these aren't recommended for NA motors. Power losses under 5000 rpm? I've never noticed any sort of "lag" with my car, and BOE has dyno sheets for comparison.

That's correct. with the stage 3 cams and solid rockers (like you have), we idle the car at 1200 on the stock ECU and it does great. With the less sophisticated standalones, one may need 1500... but the stock ECU is happy to idle that setup at 1200. Stock exige is 1000, so it's not a big deal.

With stock cams, can idle around 1000 all else equal with the solid rockers. they have much less overlap than stage 3. VVT makes all this possible. it's a great thing.

-Phil


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

____________________________________________

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BOE ClamHinge | BOE TVS SuperCharging, The Most Powerful Track-Worthy Forced Induction | EFI Engine Management | BOE The Essential Fuel Starve Solution| BOE Lotus Tow Package| BOE New-Tech Lotus Race Engines | The Right Oil Filter for Your Lotus | Custom Lotus ECU Tuning


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