Some Limited Slip and Traction Control information from Lotus - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 10:26 AM
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Simon,
What kind of modifications would be required to solve this problem without an LSD? In SS, you only really have the front sway bar and shock valving to play with. Will this suffice?

A stiffer front sway bar has helped, but hasn't solved the problem entirely AFAIK.

The LSD was offered at the end of the '05 MY, and is an '06 option, so it's a retrofit, not an aftermarket part. That maintains stock legality.

- J

'05 Lotus Elise: RS134 Monolites, Nitron Singles, Monoballs, V2 arms, RTD2 brace, Innovative motor mounts, V2 tank, GPan, Larini 8", TransCables, LumosHID, GiroDisc, Ferodo DS2500, etc.
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Last edited by Vantage; 10-30-2005 at 10:29 AM.
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post #22 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage
Simon,
What kind of modifications would be required to solve this problem without an LSD? In SS, you only really have the front sway bar and shock valving to play with. Will this suffice?

- J
so, what EXACTLY can you change?

thinking in terms of springs/ARB for starters....
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post #23 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon S
so, you regs alow an after-market LSD but not a spring change?

ever heard of drop straps?

Anti-roll bars?

etc etc.
The LSD isn't considered aftermarket if Lotus sells it as a factory option. Your other options listed are indeed proscribed by the rules they're operating under.
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post #24 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 10:37 AM
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From the SCCA website...

Stock – This category includes mass-produced, common vehicles that may be
“daily drivers,” cars used for normal, everyday driving. Stock Category cars
compete in their “factory” configuration with a minimal number of allowances
(these are not requirements) such as:
- Removal of spare tire and tools
- Front anti-roll bar(s)
- Suspension / wheel alignment using factory-approved adjustments
- High-performance DOT-approved tires (including R-compounds)
- Shock absorbers or struts (2 external adjustments maximum)
- Competition-type seat belts (no shoulder belts in open cars)
- Brake linings (pads / shoes)
- Air filter element (the “throw-away” part)
- “Cat”-back exhaust systems
- Wheels – standard diameter, width and offset (within ¼”)
- Roll bar / cage
- Gauges, indicator lights, etc.


Now, some of us don't care about stock legality either, so that's another story.

- J

'05 Lotus Elise: RS134 Monolites, Nitron Singles, Monoballs, V2 arms, RTD2 brace, Innovative motor mounts, V2 tank, GPan, Larini 8", TransCables, LumosHID, GiroDisc, Ferodo DS2500, etc.
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post #25 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 10:47 AM
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so, if I am reading this right, springs/dampers and roll bars can be changed?

If so, then bingo, your there.

if not then just change the springs, and then *adjust* the damper brakets
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post #26 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 10:59 AM
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Just shocks and front anti-roll bar. AFAIK, this has not worked entirely. There also may be a difference between a good handling setup and the fastest one.

Maybe Randy can chime in here.

- J

'05 Lotus Elise: RS134 Monolites, Nitron Singles, Monoballs, V2 arms, RTD2 brace, Innovative motor mounts, V2 tank, GPan, Larini 8", TransCables, LumosHID, GiroDisc, Ferodo DS2500, etc.
'16 Porsche Cayman GT4
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post #27 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage
Just shocks and front anti-roll bar. AFAIK, this has not worked entirely. There also may be a difference between a good handling setup and the fastest one.

Maybe Randy can chime in here.

- J
if you get the damper lenghts and spring rates right, I garrentee this will stop it.
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post #28 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoRallye
It's probably not news but a bunch of the Elises HRM has in stock did have the LSD installed (on the window sticker) -- 05's... but I didn't see any mention of TC and I didn't look for the button on the center console but I assume it's there...

I suppose somebody could call Dave or Mark and ask if those were factory or, if aftermarket or port installed, the cost, not just the sticker cost -- but labor too.

Cheers.
The last few '05s were available with LSD (and the required TC). If it's on the sticker it has to be "factory" not aftermarket. And I don't think they woudl be ripping the cars apart at the port...




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post #29 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 11:35 AM
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Alignments? Adjustable sway bars? Springs/Spring rates? Adjustable Shocks? Externally Valved shocks? What are those!? We hadn't even tried or thought of that!





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post #30 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 11:54 AM
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Humm, I take it this is your idea of sarcasm?

if I was you, I would make it your last, your just not cut out for it.

back to the subject, look, it's not about adjustable this and that, it;s about getting the basic right to start with.

yes, I do know how to do this stuff, having been racing these things for over 6 years now, soimewhat longer than most of you have even been aware the Elise exsists
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post #31 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
yes, I do know how to do this stuff, having been racing these things for over 6 years now, soimewhat longer than most of you have even been aware the Elise exsists
Edited.

I won't try and argue this anymore, as it appears to be pointless.





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post #32 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon S
if you get the damper lengths and spring rates right, I garrentee this will stop it.
Can't change the damper lengths.
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post #33 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andykeck
Can't change the damper lengths.
look, that list posted above says you can have adjustable dampers, just spec ones that are the *right* lenghts.

failing that, 'adjust' the damper brackets to have the same effect.

seems to me that you lot are trying very hard to justify spending money on something because you want to spend the money rather than actually solving the problem...

I am really struggling to understand this, so I think I will leave you to spin you wheels LSD or not (and BTW, the Lotus spec LSD will not stop it as it's a torsen, un-load the wheel, it will still spin!)

Last edited by Simon S; 10-30-2005 at 12:16 PM.
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post #34 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:14 PM
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There are more detailed requirements, but I'd have to post the rulebook.

'05 Lotus Elise: RS134 Monolites, Nitron Singles, Monoballs, V2 arms, RTD2 brace, Innovative motor mounts, V2 tank, GPan, Larini 8", TransCables, LumosHID, GiroDisc, Ferodo DS2500, etc.
'16 Porsche Cayman GT4
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post #35 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon S
look, that list posted above says you can have adjustable dampers, just spec ones that are the *right* lenghts.

failing that, 'adjust' the damper brackets to have the same effect.
Simon,

You don't seem to understand. The rules for running in stock classes in autocross are very restrictive - basically, you can change the shocks, the tires, and the muffler. You cannot change the springs, the alignment (outside of factory adjustments), or anything with the engine. You cannot change the suspension mountings, spring or shock lengths, etc. You cannot even install the Lotus factory tie rod braces. Heck, you cannot even remove the stock mirror...

For running the Elise in autocross in stock classes, the car needs an LSD to be competitive on the national level. Some of the people that you have been arguing with are, if not the champions in their class, at least way up there. They know what they are doing, and they need the LSD to be competitive. Even Lotus agreed with that by adding it as an option.




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I love being married. It's so great to find that one person that you want to annoy for the rest of your life. - Rita Rudner


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05 Lotus Elise - Chrome Orange - No Touring - No LSS - No Hardtop - Lotus Driving Lights - Lotus "Chin Guards" - plain and simple.
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Last edited by TimMullen; 10-30-2005 at 01:07 PM.
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post #36 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:52 PM
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like I said, you just want to spend money and lotus are more than happy to take it off you.

up to you, but you will find that a torsen is not going to make a jot of difference (read up on how they work)
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post #37 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:53 PM
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SCCA SS rules don't allow changing spring rates. Also, we can't do much alignment-wise - we can't even get -1.0 camber in the fronts. We can only do a front sway bar - that's it.

Simon, I would love to not have to spend the money and solve the problem but I don't see another answer here.

At autocross events, position are determined by 0.001 seconds sometimes - I won the last trophy spot at nationals a couple years back by exactly that much. We are dealing with very strict rules in Stock class and the LSD option will probably be worth a quarter or half second on a typical auto-x course.

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post #38 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon S
up to you, but you will find that a torsen is not going to make a jot of difference (read up on how they work)

Given that Randy already has his, and has reported that it does make a positive difference, I'd say you're just wrong on this one. For the street and for track days, I'm with you that it's a waste of money. But autocross is a whole different world, extremely competative, with turns unlike anything you're going to find on any racetrack. If Randy and the other national guys we have here can't tune out the wheelspin under the SS rules, I'd say it can't be tuned out.
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post #39 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 01:02 PM
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OK, I give up you you lot, your all so convinced that you can't do this or that, but then post up a list of stuff that clearly you can do?

what gives?

all I can say is that you are barking up the wrong tree, but don't mind me, go ahead and spend the cash.

it's no skin of my nose and it's your money after all

you honestly think cct racing is not about shaving fractions of seconds off lap times?

you think you have the monopoly on tight corners?
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post #40 of 118 (permalink) Old 10-30-2005, 01:04 PM
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From all accounts, it has made all the difference within the constraints of the stock class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elise77
As always, within the school everytime I come to California we are working on something.....this trip.....Provining out the LSDs potential....good or bad.

Randy has wrapped things up nicely however I will add just a bit. Here are a few things I noticed.

In the slalom....there is no more wheel spin.....(I was able to make the Elise lift and inside wheel and just spin it up)...With the limited slip....No more wheel spin....( I am sure the Penske shocks and blackwatch bar helps this out as well......More so than the LSD....However, even Roberts car with the bar and no shocks I had spinning a wheel as it became light in the slalom....so the diff helped). This combination allowed me to run the 7 cone slalom in our course in Randys car on the rev limiter......(I was the only nut to achieve this.....Randy said he could see how hard the car was cornering in the slalom).......I could not get anyware near the rev limiter in the stock diff cars....the tail would not stay behind the car....and the balance was off so I could not slide the car down the slalom...

In the Long sweeping corners.....In the last third of the corner where you are appling power the stock diff Elise would not allow alot of power to be applied. You had to sit there and wait for the car modulating the power back and forth.....It was very trying as I wanted to GO... The car would push the front end every time I asked for more.
The LSD however would allow more throttle and actually started the car into a throttle induced oversteer.....( Very Cool) Completely the opposite from what you would have expected from and LSD in a low power car...(Sorry but yes, 190 hp is LOW power......405 is big power....135 hp is a lawn mower....Sorry, I digress)

Once the car stepped the tail out you could apply full power and pin the rear wheels and away you went....the stock diff car would just keep sliding......Now with the inside wheel up in smoke....( Just like in the 5th gear video). The only way to stop it was to lift, counter steer then reapply power.

The most impressive area was the slow speed stuff. The LSD allowed you to pitch the car on throttle....(The same way I can drive my Z06). As Randy has described the bus stop we had set up.....The stock Elise would come out and wind up the wheel ever so slightly...but you could feel it..The car felt like it paused as the inside wheel lifted, spun up...then sat down..The LSD equiped Elise just put down power. It did not appear to affect the way the engine wound up at all....and it was clearly quicker.

The amazing part of this is when you came off throttle the car did not pick up any bad habbits...It did not toss the rear end...it just tracked..

In my opinion this is not a very hard locking diff like a T2R. Its very soft but the Elise does not require a big monster lockup....It does not have the motor for it....
Lotus (Toyota, whoever) nailed this one right out of the box. When I finally get my Lotus..........It will have a LSD.......

Now I would put my bet on a Lotus winning nationals. Anyone has an Elise looking for a co-drive??
I tend to trust Randy and Pat (who posted this). Both are National champion level drivers.

But since you say otherwise Simon, I'm willing to listen to what you have to say without getting too emotional. Personally, I would hope you are right, as an LSD retrofit costs about as much as a set of Nitrons and A048s. So if you can offer some more detailed advice on how to fix on an 111R, I'm all ears. Stiffer front anti-roll bar? Nitrons? I'm not restricted by any regulations.

I'm sure someone can post a technical reasons about why an LSD was required and why the problem could not be solved within the allowable modifications. Just don't know enough about it myself to explain it entirely. Randy/Pat/Robert Puertas can. The only thing I can say is that they tried, and it helped. But the problem didn't go away entirely. It otherwise would not make sense for Randy to push Lotus for so long to offer an LSD and considerable expensive to himself, when he could have fixed it all along.

- J
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'16 Porsche Cayman GT4

Last edited by Vantage; 10-30-2005 at 01:12 PM.
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