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'05 Lotus Elise - The Spinning Top

3K views 22 replies 18 participants last post by  Grunschev 
#1 ·
Hey guys,

Hope all is well. Can I pick your brains?

So I own a '05 Elise. Tons of fun. Have been a Porsche 911/911 turbo owner for 25 years doing DE's that entire time never with an incident.

I have done a few things to the Elise over this past winter. No engine mods, just a few suspension mods. Black Watch adjustable front sway (set on the third out of five holes-so stiffened up slightly over OEM) bar, BOE Adjustable TOE-NAS links, T3 steering arms, Sector 111 steering rack (my OEM inner tie rods started clunking). I currently run Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec rubber, no "R" comps yet. Stock shock/spring and ride height (obviously).

I took the full on race alignment specs that some folks sent me and had my guys dial in what I thought would be a nice compromise between OEM and full on race specs.

Front
Camber - (-2.00)
Caster - 3.25
Toe - 0.02in

Rear
Camber - (-2.50)
Toe - 0.10in

So several of my recent DE events have been in the rain (boo!!), but I have done that plenty of times in the Porsche. Two separate tracks and both times I have spun!!! No damage, no issues other than a badly bruised ego and questions about why this is happening. Snap oversteer, to much negative camber, to stiff on sway up front or not stiff enough, no "R" comps (which I would not want to run in the rain here in New England), new Sector 111 rack is actually to snappy OR is this all driver error (which I am afraid of!!)- lifting throttle in turns (I know not to do that!!), good throttle modulation, etc. But gee how ginger do I have to drive the car? No fun, not happy and worst of all I am losing confidence in the Elise where I have always been a very competent driver on and off the track.

One spin was on a back straight at Palmer here in MA (fast) and the spin literally occurred in a split second, yesterday at Thompson Raceway in CT the spin was on an "S" series of curves and I came in a little to tight on the apex rather than maintaining the rain line and she let loose. Slow speed, maybe 45mph.

So I am racking my brain trying to understand the handling characteristics of the Lotus vs. the 911 and why such subtle inputs are producing unwanted results.

Can some folks provide some input please? Let me know

Many thanks,

Henry Fisher
'05 Elise
'76 930
 
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#2 ·
1. Video? When I go back and watch my spins that felt instant they always have a long buildup that I just was missing at the time.
2. I never have any trouble with lift throttle spinning really, its not as bad as people make it out to be, I wonder if you are just going too fast INTO corners, get good at slow in fast out and then start carrying speed?

You haven't given a ton to deal with here in terms of waht it can be, I am pretty fast driver and i would be hard pressed to make it through a day of pushing hard on any track without spinning in the rain... Especially if you drive over the rubber, for example MSR-C there is no acceptable speed on the dry line through the Esses, like 15 mph is too fast if you are on the rubber so that is something to consider.
Mechanically, are you sure your alignment is accurate?
 
#3 ·
Oh - one thing I have noticed on the track is that the really fast drivers in 911's are able to hold WAY more yaw angle then I am through medium speed corners, maybe you're just used to an amount of rotation that is too much in the elise.
 
#4 ·
I have 2 comments.

First, the wheelbase of an Elige is basically a square. So physics has no concept of which way the car should be facing, once it starts rotating.

Second, I have an Exige. I see many videos of Elises spinning out, in situations where I am positive the Exige would not have spun. So, I'm going to credit the wing.
 
#17 ·
I have 2 comments.

Second, I have an Exige. I see many videos of Elises spinning out, in situations where I am positive the Exige would not have spun. So, I'm going to credit the wing.
Oh? As stock the only performance difference is a little more aero on the Exige, perhaps different coilovers.

When modded up they are essential identical, just harder to get an intercooler into an Elise.

Hardly the sort of things that would make one have a different propensity to spin.

I'll taken our Elise 'round maybe thirty times, only hit anything twice. But I really pushed her. Two spins in rain, but the rest were all either because I lifted too much (throttle steer is delicate but can be done), or carried trail braking too far, or just plain overcorrected.

It was basically because I was trying to go faster than my skill. But how else to get better?
 
#5 ·
hmmm wish i had some advice for you but my experiences are exact opposite of yours. im an instructor with almost 20 yrs hpde. only car i ever spun was 997 gt3. happened 4 times in 4 yrs. been driving stock elise for last 3 seasons and find it much easier to handle than the porsche. be careful...
 
#6 ·
What are your hot tire pressures? The Elise is somewhat sensitive to tire pressure adjustment. In particular pressures above about 30psi hot in the rear can make it more prone to rotate. In a related note, do you have any data on the tire tread temperatures? The actual temperature is less important than the spread. You're looking for even heating inner-center-outer. That, as much as anything, will tell you how well your alignment is working for you.

And, specifically where did you spin at Palmer (i.e between which corners)? There are a couple of spots on that track where the camber can get tricky. The right line is really important in certain parts of that track.

Finally, as you may already know, (donning my Captain Obvious t-shirt) these things rotate really quickly. It is almost impossible to move the steering wheel too fast when trying to catch a slide.
 
#7 ·
I have a couple of other things to look into as well.

Sorry I don't have my alignment setup with me, but for this car alignment has A LOT to do with it. Did your alignment shop have the car properly set up when the aligned it? I.E. did the have ballast weight in the driver's seat when they setup the vehicle's alignment. In the lotus 100 pounds in the wrong place can make the car handly DRASTICALLY different. When I had my car aligned, I sat in the driver's seat the whole time the car was being setup. So it was set at my weight, the first time the shop did it, they made a dramatic error and forgot the weight in the driver's seat and the car was very snappy. However after I had it realigned with my weight in the front seat, the car was MUCH nicer to drive and easier to hold the rear in check in a corner. Passengers also seriously mess with how the car is handling. When I am driving by myself vs. with a person I find the car reacts very differently.

The second thing is the vehicle's rake. I have found that having a larger tire in the rear and a smaller diameter tire in the front gives the car about an additional 3 to 4mm of rake, which on the OEM suspension the vehicle very much enjoys/prefers. It distributes more weight to the front for corner entry for braking, the front tires grab for the turn, you are already on the throttle for midturn/exit and the rear is hooked up and pushing you forward. You are driving a vehicle that is A LOT lighter than a porsche so you can drive it in deeper into the corners, load up the front end better, and then "flick" the rear around a little better with good throttle modulation. All in all, it makes for a very fun experience.

I admit, my driving suggestions come from an AutoX standpoint...where there are major speed differences/tighter turns...but I have learned A LOT in terms of handling the car in a corner and with speed.

One other thing that will help quite a bit, wheel spacers in the rear, approximately 5 - 8mm will widen the track of the rear end and allow it to plant a lot better in corner also. Tire pressures are huge...on the AutoX course I generally run 22psi in front and 24-25psi in rear. Not sure how different that would be on a Track day.

You said, you have the OEM suspension...that was the first thing I changed in my 2nd elise. I upgraded to the BWR Dual Adjustable and dialed it in, so that the car is almost COMPLETELY neutral. It does make for an amazingly comfortable driving experience.
 
#8 ·
A few thoughts & questions:
1) How old are the tires? Even Direzza's heat/age cycle. Most get 2X the number of miles on the fronts versus rears, thus the rears will loose their grip far sooner than the fronts.
2) What "stock" suspension/wheels do you have - Base or Sport?
3) A "stock" Elise/Exige likes to be cornered under power, even neutral throttle mid-corner can/will lead to snap oversteer.

Cheers,
Kiyoshi
 
#10 · (Edited)
Your alignment generally looks fine. I run -2.2 f / -2.5 r and about 1.5mm toe per side in the rear. Front toe 0. But this is on R888s...for Star Specs you don't need quite as much camber.

3) A "stock" Elise/Exige likes to be cornered under power, even neutral throttle mid-corner can/will lead to snap oversteer.

Cheers,
Kiyoshi
Might be something along these lines. Elise / Exige handling is heavily influenced by throttle position. You can make the car understeer, oversteer, and be neutral all by and how you shift weight around the car. I'm a pretty slow driver, but I've noticed the throttle really has the tendency to the settle the rear down. On the flip side, you can get understeer by coming off the brakes too fast, which "jacks" the front of the car up and reduces front grip.

A common anecdote I hear is that the stock coilovers tend to cause the handling to be a bit more snappy, something about rebound being quite sudden. Can't confirm this because most of my track experience is on Nitrons.

Lastly, I think these cars are more susceptible to hydroplaning than others, even on summer tires. This might explain your spin on the back straight.
 
#9 ·
My first thought is that sorting a particular combination/setup can take some tweaking to dial it in. Some tires "like" more negative camber than others. I'd be thinking about experimenting with camber settings, but given what you have described I would try the front bar on full stiff and see if it is more what you want. I'd start there in part b/c I figure that is an easy adjustment to try first.
 
#11 ·
...Snap oversteer, to much negative camber, too stiff on sway up front or not stiff enough, no "R" comps (which I would not want to run in the rain here in New England), new Sector 111 rack is actually too snappy OR is this all driver error (which I am afraid of!!)- lifting throttle in turns (I know not to do that!!), good throttle modulation, etc. But gee how ginger do I have to drive the car?
The statement about the new rack has me wondering. Typically, a spin is caused by a failure to manage weight transfer, rather than excessive steering input. Your brain will set off all of the warning bells when you turn in too much in the course of a turn. The weight transfer is managed by the throttle.

Do you lift the throttle even a little in the turn? It's not clear to me from what you wrote whether you're saying that you would never do that or that you might be doing that but you're not sure.

Final question is what are you doing with the throttle? Split what you are doing with the throttle into three parts pre-apex, apex and post apex.

P.S. That Porsche in your sig in rear engine. Have you driven recent mid-rear engined Porsches or just the older rear-engined cars? Maybe the brain has been trained and needs some time to adjust. Your lines should be different in the Lotus.
 
#13 ·
I think this link should work for everyone that doesn't have access to your YT account:


Nice video. During the first spin (knowing it's a spin video) I could feel the car unweighting over the top. The other two spins are probably similar, but the unweighting is not as obvious.
 
#15 ·
I have had 3 spins in my Elise, all on the same day. The first 2 were at the exact same spot, a slight crest with a blind turn, in the rain on a track that I was driving for the first time. A light car made even lighter by the crest in rain and on tires not well suited for rain does not leave any room for errors. I sat out the next session until the rain quit and the track somewhat dried out.
 
#16 ·
I've got an 05 elise that I track and have also spun out three times usually if I brake too early and shift weight back to fornt as I'm going into a turn. What made the biggest difference is loading up some Hoosier slicks and adding some aero. I started with a front splitter, then added a rear wing, side sills and finally front canards. Each addition was tuned by my local race garage www.lyfemotorsports.com. My trainer is a professional driver (miata) and he has run my elise faster than than the Porshe GT3s around the track, the grip is simply insane. I'm nowhere near that good with it but the additional downforce makes a big difference. I live in Salt Lake City so the altitude and thin air doesn't help and it is like a game of chicken where I can take a turn a 50 or 80 (with downforce at full effect) but anywhere in the middle I spin out... I added the side sills really just to capture the gravel when I spin out and not have to redo my clearmask each time ;-)

Stock engine, stock suspension (Bilstein race pack), sector 111 control arms and much much more...

 
#18 ·
1) Replace those Star Specs now. They were a hot street tire in 2011. They have to be at least 3 to 4 years or more old based on their production. That's bad... especially in the rain. Tires need to be soft and new to make grip in the rain because there is no way to get heat into the tire. I recommend Bridgestone RE71R. They are amazing. You'll think you are on r-comps after being on the Star Specs.

2) After tires, if you feel the car is still too loose, adding more rear toe-in will make dramatic changes to the dynamics of the car. I've found rear toe to be one of the MOST powerful tuning tools.
 
#19 ·
The stock lotus shocks are valved in such a way as to make it hang up on the first phase of the corner leading to "push-to-oversteer" or snap oversteer. I spun my Lotus in the early days over a hundred times at autoxes. Ultimately, getting rid of the crap bilsteins and developing our Penskes resolved that issue. Now the rotation is gentle, predictable, and progressive. It doesn't mean you won't spin the car, it means that you can feel it coming on much, much earlier. That limit is wide and progressive rather than walking a tightrope.
 
#20 ·
:clap:

Fred,

1) What is hang up?

2) How do you feel about whether a "well setup" car needs some throttle to corner in a stable manner, as Kiyoshi was discussing above? A friend of mine has a stock Elise (but added a rear wing) and after he drove my car, he thought it was setup very very loose. To me, the car feels pretty neutral but understeers on corner exit, so I wonder if this comes down to driving style with respect to how much throttle we apply during the corner.
 
#22 ·
@fzust
That may explain the skipping with the factory Bilsteins. I've tried three aftermarket setups and none of them skipped like the Bilsteins. When I throttle, or maintenance throttle, over an apex that is at the top of a crest, the rear end comes loose (maybe gets air momentarily) no matter which setup I use, but the aftermarket setups predictably drift a couple of feet and dig in. The Bilsteins will skip across the pavement three or four times, all the while dragging the rear end out further.
 
#23 ·
I'm going to make a radical suggestion. Run with cheaper tires.

The disadvantage of running hard tires is you don't go as fast. The advantage is, you don't go as fast. After you've learned how the car handles, advance to better tires. I think you'll be more comfortable spinning or going sideways if you're not going as fast.

Or not. I have the luxury of owning two sets of wheels. Team Dynamics 1.2 for street, LSS for track. I'm seriously considering putting cheap tires on both sets. I have soft tires on the LSS wheels now, but the rears are bald and heat cycled while the fronts are just heat cycled. I got six or seven days out of them. I was faster than on the UHP summer tires, but I think I have more fun with the hard tires. I'm not racing, so it really doesn't matter that I could be a few seconds faster.

Most of the tracks I've run on have been with the cheap tires. I do these massive road trips for track days (Pacific northwest three years ago, California last year, Austin this year), it's a no brainer that I run on street tires (Dunlop Direzza DZ 102, currently. 460 tread wear.) My grin is certainly no smaller, and arguably bigger, with these tires than with "more suitable" tires.

All that said, the only time I've spun the car is when I had a comprehensive suspension failure on the left rear corner. I put two off quite a bit, four off occasionally, and I've been known to have a tank-slapper now and again. I haven't had a rainy track day, but I have run the Elise at a number of challenging tracks. The car feels quite well balanced to me. I've only done AutoX twice, but both times found situations where I get understeer. I also occasionally get oversteer. Both these conditions make sense to me, given the nature of the turn and what I'm trying to do. On the whole, though, it feels neutral. Could be that I don't know what I'm doing, but I often find myself putting down quicker times than cars that are faster than mine (e.g. SC Elises and Exiges on better tires).

I do have factory track pack and LSD, but I've never driven another Elise so I have no basis for comparison.
 
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