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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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ECU tuning?

I'm going back to stock motor tune on my car and need to do a reflash. Anyone used these guys: Vision Function?

ECU Upgrades - Vision Function - Supercharge your Lotus

2006 Elise with BOE 400 supercharger and some aero mods, CRF floating oversized rotors, MCS single adjust coil overs, CRF exhaust, CRF sway bar w/adjustable link, mono-ball pivots, machined steer arms, baffled oil pan, CRF titanium toe link brace, hardened motor mounts, Ethos wheels w/Yoko slicks
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 07:20 PM
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Use BOE I think they’re more reliable as a company. Vision function does exist but it’s called Jermaine tuning now
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titaniumdave View Post
I'm going back to stock motor tune on my car and need to do a reflash. Anyone used these guys: Vision Function?

ECU Upgrades - Vision Function - Supercharge your Lotus
Care to share why you're going back? Perhaps you've had a bad experience and might convince me not to purchase an "upgraded" tune for my stock elise?
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by lance_mn View Post
Care to share why you're going back? Perhaps you've had a bad experience and might convince me not to purchase an "upgraded" tune for my stock elise?
As if one person's experience would offset the large group of BOE, Blackwatch and InoKinetec customers who are frigging thrilled....

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 07:12 PM
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Just buy a stock ECU.

** save ~10 lbs gain 1 hp ** EQ: Y=(190*X) / (1984-X) where Y is (HP) and X is (lbs)

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WTC 2
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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Im returning my car to stock, sell the upgrade parts all to finance a race car...always a wise choice we must agree😉

2006 Elise with BOE 400 supercharger and some aero mods, CRF floating oversized rotors, MCS single adjust coil overs, CRF exhaust, CRF sway bar w/adjustable link, mono-ball pivots, machined steer arms, baffled oil pan, CRF titanium toe link brace, hardened motor mounts, Ethos wheels w/Yoko slicks
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 07:58 PM
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As if one person's experience would offset the large group of BOE, Blackwatch and InoKinetec customers who are frigging thrilled....
I'm not familiar with a large group of thrilled customers. I would like to be, as my stock Elise is about 20whp slower than I can tolerate and I'd love to know I have good options. Quite the opposite, I've been crestfallen by a lot of disappointed posts casting doubt the there's any performance to be squeezed out beyond what lotus has done. I did see your post about timing yourself after your new tune and I was encouraged that you saw positive results, but you're the only I've found with results like that so far.

Keep in mind I'm talking about tuning a stock Elise. Obviously more can be done with the supercharged cars or even heavily opened intake/exhaust.

This is a very interesting topic to me, the question of gains from tuning. I've been planning to start a thread about it myself. In the world of tuning, it's generally true that a mail order tune that blindly makes fueling and spark changes won't give much gain if any, in fact losses are sometimes observed. A lapidary custom tune performed iteratively on a Dyno (or perhaps a drag strip) is absolutely the way to go. I tune my own cars and am disappointed to find there isn't apparently software for tuning these yourself, and I'm dubious that the one size fits all tunes can guarentee gains. I'm very hesitant to spend.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lance_mn View Post
I'm not familiar with a large group of thrilled customers. I would like to be, as my stock Elise is about 20whp slower than I can tolerate and I'd love to know I have good options. Quite the opposite, I've been crestfallen by a lot of disappointed posts casting doubt the there's any performance to be squeezed out beyond what lotus has done. I did see your post about timing yourself after your new tune and I was encouraged that you saw positive results, but you're the only I've found with results like that so far.

Keep in mind I'm talking about tuning a stock Elise. Obviously more can be done with the supercharged cars or even heavily opened intake/exhaust.

This is a very interesting topic to me, the question of gains from tuning. I've been planning to start a thread about it myself. In the world of tuning, it's generally true that a mail order tune that blindly makes fueling and spark changes won't give much gain if any, in fact losses are sometimes observed. A lapidary custom tune performed iteratively on a Dyno (or perhaps a drag strip) is absolutely the way to go. I tune my own cars and am disappointed to find there isn't apparently software for tuning these yourself, and I'm dubious that the one size fits all tunes can guarentee gains. I'm very hesitant to spend.
I cannot really speak to tunning the non SC Elise, but I believe the gains will be good related to driving and not simply a HP increase. Better under the curve all around and lower cam change can make a big difference without a huge increase in power. Though Id still recommend a SC.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lance_mn View Post
I tune my own cars and am disappointed to find there isn't apparently software for tuning these yourself, and I'm dubious that the one size fits all tunes can guarentee gains. I'm very hesitant to spend.
There has been so much positive feedback for BOE that i doubt you would be disappointed. The only negatives that I've heard are that they are hard to get into contact with and that the tune does not fix some of Lotus original rough idle at cold start issues.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25...review-264609/


https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f17...us-ecu-162082/

as i understand, BOE or Fastworks can sell you access to their full tuning suite (but I've not seen many users post that they purchased this).

also, as an alternative for anyone who is not risk averse and wants to be a guinea pig, the 2005 elise can be tuned via romraider, a vag com cable and a java program that i wrote.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f17...ontrol-463664/

https://github.com/Obeisance/Daft_LotusT4_OBD
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lance_mn View Post
I'm not familiar with a large group of thrilled customers. I would like to be, as my stock Elise is about 20whp slower than I can tolerate and I'd love to know I have good options. Quite the opposite, I've been crestfallen by a lot of disappointed posts casting doubt the there's any performance to be squeezed out beyond what lotus has done. I did see your post about timing yourself after your new tune and I was encouraged that you saw positive results, but you're the only I've found with results like that so far.

Keep in mind I'm talking about tuning a stock Elise. Obviously more can be done with the supercharged cars or even heavily opened intake/exhaust.

This is a very interesting topic to me, the question of gains from tuning. I've been planning to start a thread about it myself. In the world of tuning, it's generally true that a mail order tune that blindly makes fueling and spark changes won't give much gain if any, in fact losses are sometimes observed. A lapidary custom tune performed iteratively on a Dyno (or perhaps a drag strip) is absolutely the way to go. I tune my own cars and am disappointed to find there isn't apparently software for tuning these yourself, and I'm dubious that the one size fits all tunes can guarentee gains. I'm very hesitant to spend.
1. I don't think I've ever seen complaints about the BOE NA upgrade.

2. This upgrade is not based on "blindly make(ing) fueling and spark changes". It is well engineered and thoroughly tested (by BOE and many LT members).

3. Modern cars have pretty tight tolerances, fuel trims and timing among them. So, what works on one engine will work on the same engine in another car.

In fact, BOE can alter this tune based on other changes like intake or exhaust.


4. When you tune, where is the dyno?

5. You will not see a 20 hp gain. The gain, as Lostpawn points out, is where we used to lose 20 hp right before cam switch, and the fact that that switch comes on at lower rpms. It's a very nice change.....

....and gaining a full seconds in one gear is damn good. (gaining = losing)

g

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 07:05 AM
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So, what works on one engine will work on the same engine in another car.
This is exactly the fallacy I walked into the performance world with years ago and was quickly squashed by evidence. In the late 90s and early 2000s, it was extremely popular to buy a handheld tuner that would come with some changes it could make to your car. While it's possible this era of "off the shelf" tunes were less scrupulous than the likes of BOE, I have no evidence to assume it so. The result during that era was that some people would see a few hp gain, some would see no gain at all, and in some rare cases they'd see a loss. The tuning community across the board learned that these are useless compared to the gains you make while making small changes a bit at a time to the car in question until you find the optimal spark/fueling map for the car in question. While it's counterintuitive that this would all be true (Hey, these cars rolled off the assembly line together right?) and while I've encountered various explanations for why it's true (cars at different altitude, different gas, motor components in different degrees of degradation, tuner is more conservative when producing a tune for the masses rather than tuning a specific car, etc) none of that matters in the face of cold hard evidence: it's been observed that there's more to be had with a custom tune, and that experiment has been repeated countless time. It's very likely that all cars will see very similar results with a BOE off-the-shelf tune, but unfortunately it is not guaranteed that all cars see the same results.

If my years of experience learning this lesson for some reason doesn't apply to the Elise, so be it. I'll be surprised, but so be it. Perhaps BOE and others have figured something out that "diablo" and all the other "off the shelf" tunes from back in the day couldn't. Either way, I'd only be proven wrong by performing a custom tune and then applying their tune and comparing, and that experiment is prohibitively expensive, so I'm going with the evidence from the rest of the performance community and am stuck in a position of skepticism. If the BOE tune does reliably provide something, I'm not certain they've left 0 hp on the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glb View Post
2. This upgrade is not based on "blindly make(ing) fueling and spark changes". It is well engineered and thoroughly tested (by BOE and many LT members).
You'll have to forgive me, I used my own terminology here which was ambiguous and you've interpreted differently than I intended. Any tune in which you don't check for the results on the car it's applied and continue making adjustments based on that feedback is one which I'm describing as "blind changes" since we don't have a standard term for this type of tune. I feel that "blind" is a good way to describe applying a tune without testing it and adjusting it, no matter how thoroughly it was tested on an identical car. I assume that these providers, such as BOE, are doing the best job possible, thoroughly testing, etc. By my definition, BOE and all other tunes available are what I would call a "blind tune" and I don't mean to imply any lack of diligence or capability on the part of the provider. There's only so much you can do.

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5. You will not see a 20 hp gain.
I was afraid you might misinterpret that. I have no such naivety, I'll restate for clarity: I am disappointed in my car's performance by about 20whp, and while I would never dream of getting that out of a tune, I'd be very happy to learn that there is some guaranteed gain to be had out of a tune, even ~5whp.

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Originally Posted by glb View Post
The gain, as Lostpawn points out, is where we used to lose 20 hp right before cam switch, and the fact that that switch comes on at lower rpms.
Yeah, the lower change over seems like a no brainer and I'm planning on that no matter what. That's ostensibly a single constant change in the ECU that anybody could do and couldn't possibly screw up. It can be had from anywhere, including the "Sport ECU" that I believe Lotus offered themselves. I'm more interested in the gains from spark/fueling across the rest of the powerband. That's the tricky bit.

Anyhow, dave answered my question, so that's much appreciated.


Last edited by lance_mn; 06-18-2019 at 08:02 AM.
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by lance_mn View Post
This is exactly the fallacy I walked into the performance world with years ago and was quickly squashed by evidence. In the late 90s and early 2000s, it was extremely popular to buy a handheld tuner that would come with some changes it could make to your car. While it's possible this era of "off the shelf" tunes were less scrupulous than the likes of BOE, I have no evidence to assume it so. The result during that era was that some people would see a few hp gain, some would see no gain at all, and in some rare cases they'd see a loss. The tuning community across the board learned that these are useless compared to the gains you make while making small changes a bit at a time to the car in question until you find the optimal spark/fueling map for the car in question. While it's counterintuitive that this would all be true (Hey, these cars rolled off the assembly line together right?) and while I've encountered various explanations for why it's true (cars at different altitude, different gas, motor components in different degrees of degradation, tuner is more conservative when producing a tune for the masses rather than tuning a specific car, etc) none of that matters in the face of cold hard evidence: it's been observed that there's more to be had with a custom tune, and that experiment has been repeated countless time. It's very likely that all cars will see very similar results with a BOE off-the-shelf tune, but unfortunately it is not guaranteed that all cars see the same results.
I think a conversation with BOE might be helpful as they have a good knowledge of their product and how is has worked for customers. You seem to grasp the concepts that go into a tune and how various conditions will affect how your car responds to that tune. Yes, a custom tune will always be better than a generic one but I believe in this case the generic one will be better than stock. BOE will custom tune you car, just get it scheduled and get the car to them (though I'm not sure the money for that without a SC is worth it). I have no idea how many cars BOE has tuned on their dyno but guessing a lot and their tune is not simply targeting HP at WOT.

I'd also recommend finding someone local with one of their tunes to see if that is enough power for you.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 08:12 AM
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I'm still quite happy with the BOE NA tune 5 years later.

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 12:21 PM
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Lance,

1. I wrote "modern cars", not those from 20+ yrs ago.

2. See #1

3. You wrote 'my stock Elise is about 20whp slower than I can tolerate" I didn't misinterpret
anything. You miswrote this apparently.

4. Who is Dave?

5. So, what dyno do you use?
---

Lost,

BOE did find another 10 hp on my blower. Too cold here to work on my car in winter...

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 08:06 PM
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Dude, we have a 2004 OBD2 motor that isn't different in any relevant way from the OBD2 LSX motors from the same era with which this tuning lesson I'm describing was learned. You're not talking about cars from 20+ years ago? Our motor is 15 years old. What do you think happened in 1999-2004 that suddenly caused all cars to be tuned as effectively by generic tunes as custom tunes? Declaring our cars "modern" doesn't exempt it from the rule that generic tunes never deliver above a custom tune, nor the general truth that a lot of generic (or what I was calling "blind") tunes are available for a lot of cars with little/no payoff. If you walk onto any drag strip where horsepower tuning is happening every week, everybody knows this. It's not only a valid concern, but a popular one justified by loads of evidence.

I thought we were just having a normal exchange of differing information, but your last comment was something else. It's been a good 15 years since I bumped into a troll on an auto forum, and I know there's nothing to be gained from feeding you here, but given that you're such an established member that I'm going to be encountering again, I might as well address this.

> I didn't misinterpret anything. You miswrote this apparently.
There was literally nothing in my original post indicating that I expect to get 20 hp from a tune. At worst, because I stated my desires for 20 hp textually near my desire to learn about proven tunes, it's a bit reasonable that you might accidentally make that assumption. You made the leap that I must expect to close all of that 20 hp gap, not just part of it, and that I believe I'm going to do that all with tuning... I corrected your assumption in a way intended to be magnanimous and bend over backward restating for clarity. I do apologize if I failed at creating that message of magnanimity. However, I miswrote nothing. I've decided you're unreasonable and it's probably best we ignore each other on this forum for the sake of peace and calm.

> So, what dyno do you use?
In all honesty, why are you actually asking this? I ask rhetorically. Clearly you're not looking for a good local dyno in Minnesota. I fear you have some other bizarre agenda, too toxic for a forum as good as this one.

Last edited by lance_mn; 06-25-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Obeisance View Post
also, as an alternative for anyone who is not risk averse and wants to be a guinea pig, the 2005 elise can be tuned via romraider, a vag com cable and a java program that i wrote.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f17...ontrol-463664/

https://github.com/Obeisance/Daft_LotusT4_OBD
Excellent! I'm actually a consultant in java software engineering. When I finally get some time I really want to check this out. I don't see any conventional build file (gradle/maven/ant), what are you using to build it?

EDIT: We can switch to PM as well

Last edited by lance_mn; 06-25-2019 at 09:44 PM.
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 10:46 PM
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Stick with BOE, you wont go wrong there.

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by lance_mn View Post
Excellent! I'm actually a consultant in java software engineering. When I finally get some time I really want to check this out. I don't see any conventional build file (gradle/maven/ant), what are you using to build it?

EDIT: We can switch to PM as well
I've no reason to be secretive about that code, but it may be more appropriate to have a dedicated thread instead of highjacking this one. if you want some kind of video demonstration, or detailed explanation, than we can move to pm before a phone call.

I'm not a professional programmer, and instead prefer to make a functional result, even if it's a bit clunky. so lower your expectations- it's a free program, after all.

i don't have any familiarity with those builder programs. the output is the jar file that eclipse generates. on two computers that I've tested, i didn't need to bundle it into an exe; once Java is installed (along with ftdi drivers) i can simply double click on it to run.

but that program is not nearly as interesting as RomRaider.. in RomRaider you can visualize and edit the calibration tables in a ROM image.

finally, although i have no experience with the 2006 T4e, i do expect it to use the same reflashing protocol (with different key bytes) as the 2005 car, since both can be reprogrammed via k-line. I'm certain that there are users on lotustalk who have this information, too. it's quite possible that my Daft OBD program is capable of reflashing an OE image into the T4e.
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 04:02 AM
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Lance,

I seem to have offended you. I didn’t intend that, so am sorry.

1. Not all engines are (or same as) 20 yrs old and nor are their sensors and controls. Moreover, our 2ZZs are already pretty highly tuned, making large gains difficult to find w/o spending $$$.

2. I simply told you the limits and benefits of the BOE tune and used your “20 hp” as a reference.

3. Dyno: I know dyno time is typically not cheap and wondered where you went. For all we know, you might own a dyno.

No ulterior motive in my question and “I fear….bizarre agenda, too toxic…” makes you seem a bit paranoid.

4. Trolls are not characterized as ppl who question or even (gasp) disagree with you. I’ve been working on cars since 1965. Even had my ’65 GTO dyno-tuned. On my 3rd Lotus. Restored an Elan Sprint and drove it for 20 years.
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05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 07:52 AM
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> Who is Dave?

Titaniumdave, in this thread
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