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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 10:42 AM
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I'm at 281rwhp on the MP62 and am sure I'd make more with Phil's tune. It definitely is a different car with more power/torque.

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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 04:19 PM
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I think you're not understanding the issue with displacement when comparing to those other motors. It's a 1.8L. K motor, 2L-2.4L. So that's 10+% more volume depending on the K.... let alone the G8 you referenced. There is no replacement for displacement.

That said, Darksol, 11.3 at 123. Fred zust, 11.X at high teens. A once previous owner subarurat did a low 11 on a stock motor even... granted these guys may be exceptions, but it's totally doable without a lot of work. Right out the box, perhaps, depends on the supporting hardware...

Nevertheless, the 1900 won't even sorta fit in the engine bay. It's HUGE. It also doesn't like to make the needed 20+psi boost that's needed to make it worth it. It CAN, but doesn't LIKE to. The 1320 is similar. It CAN make 20 psi, but efficiency falls off a cliff at 15psi and the RPM we make.

Some of you guys are new to this and just discovering all this "new info" that we veteran lotus owners discovered years ago... It's not a knock on all you noobs. We all had to start somewhere, but don't take our silence in posting ("our" being those of who have been around a while) as indication that nearly everything has been tried, done, raced, blown up trying, won, etc over the past many years. It's all out there on this forum with the search function. Just say'n

Cheers,

Phil
Phil, you could have just said it doesn't fit.
Calling me a noob is a bit insulting. Yeah I'm new to this platform and forum but I'm not a noob.

20psi is bit different depending on which motor it's being made on. Are you saying that the TVS1900 would have difficulty creating 20psi on our 1.8? I find that a bit hard to believe based on the results other platforms are seeing.
That being said I think the application matters a lot to the conversation. You guys seem to build cars and setups designed to function on the street and at the track for extended periods of time. Some of these applications I'm talking about are designed for short bursts like dyno pulls and 1/4 mile passes. So context is needed a bit too. Also, solutions like methanol go a long way, especially for short bursts, in overcoming efficiency issues.

Remember I didn't doubt that the Rev400 kit could be an 11 sec car. Even on a stock motor it's 11 sec capable, I even said you could probably run 10s on the Rev400, but don't slap on a Rev400 and think it will be an 11 second car. That's what I was alluding to. That there are some other factors that make the Elige a less than suitable drag strip vehicle.

Regardless, I'll probably end up lowering the compression soon so I can run a smaller pully in my Rev400 kit, and at that point, even with the gearing shortcomings, I think it'd be pretty hard for the car not to be an 11 sec car.
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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 04:44 PM
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Phil, you could have just said it doesn't fit.
Calling me a noob is a bit insulting. Yeah I'm new to this platform and forum but I'm not a noob.
He didn't call you a noob. He has more class than that. You took it the wrong way, which is easy to do.

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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 06:47 PM
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This has always been my dream, which will one day be a reality. I will make less HP, of course, because I can't get rid of my Larini dual-tip SE, but it'll be fine for me, just need a spare $10K!
I have the Larini Dual-Tip SE with a cat, & the REV400. I love the look, just had to go with a naked rear because driver's reflector was melting.

305 WHP. But I think that was with Phil's tuning muffler.

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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ls1Rx7 View Post
Phil, you could have just said it doesn't fit.
Calling me a noob is a bit insulting. Yeah I'm new to this platform and forum but I'm not a noob.

20psi is bit different depending on which motor it's being made on. Are you saying that the TVS1900 would have difficulty creating 20psi on our 1.8? I find that a bit hard to believe based on the results other platforms are seeing.
That being said I think the application matters a lot to the conversation. You guys seem to build cars and setups designed to function on the street and at the track for extended periods of time. Some of these applications I'm talking about are designed for short bursts like dyno pulls and 1/4 mile passes. So context is needed a bit too. Also, solutions like methanol go a long way, especially for short bursts, in overcoming efficiency issues.

Remember I didn't doubt that the Rev400 kit could be an 11 sec car. Even on a stock motor it's 11 sec capable, I even said you could probably run 10s on the Rev400, but don't slap on a Rev400 and think it will be an 11 second car. That's what I was alluding to. That there are some other factors that make the Elige a less than suitable drag strip vehicle.

Regardless, I'll probably end up lowering the compression soon so I can run a smaller pully in my Rev400 kit, and at that point, even with the gearing shortcomings, I think it'd be pretty hard for the car not to be an 11 sec car.
You shouldn't be offended because of a "noob" comment regardless if it was directed at you or about you. It's all well and good and just a reality of the circumstances for many folks on this forum who are just not discovering the depths of the car/motor/etc I wise man knows what he doesn't know.

Just because Smokey Yunick knew his way forward and backward around a NASCAR V-8 back in the day doesn't mean he knows where the dipstick is in a Lotus. To be fair, I can walk you through every nook and cranny of a 2ZZ, but short of the firing order of a small block chebby, my knowledge base runs thin quick with it (who doesn't know 18436572 by heart though?).

Nevertheless, if you think in the past 10 years "we" didn't think about putting a 1900 on a 2ZZ or "doing more" with the 1320, then you would be mistaken. 1900, doesn't fit. It's a gargantuan. The 1320: pre-injection, more boost, bigger crank pulleys, spin the tar out of it, low compression, high compression, E85, C16, elves and pixie dust, porting, no porting, EGR heads, non-EGR heads, big cams, little cams, solid rockers, stock rockers, stroked 2L, standard stroke, long rod, standard rod, de-stroked 1.6L, 9,000 RPM, 10,000 RPM,
you name it... all old news. That's the noob in you as it relates to this forum, this marque, etc...


To be clear, I said the 1900 and 1320 doesn't "like" to make 20 psi boost. And they don't. They're blowers, not compressors and there's a difference. The efficiency of a TVS blows up there (no pun intended). Compressors are happier in that space, twin screws, turbos, etc... It's simply a matter of picking the right tool for the job. Further, it takes a 2.3L twin screw to make 25 psi in a 1.8L 2ZZ comfortably and you're right, I'm not that interested in making temporary power. I like sustained power. There's already a tried and trued temporary power maker. It's called Nitrous and it works great. I wouldn't spend a nickel trying to adapter the wrong part for the application when a little spray would do the trick better and cheaper.

To that end, there's math that goes behind all this. It's not just luck. It is true that the math only takes one so far before you just have to try it... the point of my post was that most things have been "tried" and that history is on this forum...

Cheers,

Phil


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 08:46 PM
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First run of the night on trashed 5 year old A048s..... R/T and 60' like a boss....
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
Nevertheless, if you think in the past 10 years "we" didn't think about putting a 1900 on a 2ZZ or "doing more" with the 1320, then you would be mistaken. 1900, doesn't fit. It's a gargantuan. The 1320: pre-injection, more boost, bigger crank pulleys, spin the tar out of it, low compression, high compression, E85, C16, elves and pixie dust, porting, no porting, EGR heads, non-EGR heads, big cams, little cams, solid rockers, stock rockers, stroked 2L, standard stroke, long rod, standard rod, de-stroked 1.6L, 9,000 RPM, 10,000 RPM,
you name it... all old news. That's the noob in you as it relates to this forum, this marque, etc...

[/I]
Tried, every single thing above except Pixie dust, 2L stroker and destroked 1.6. Seriously. The Phil/Fred R&D pile is filled with broken dreams and broken parts. The stuff that remains, works and works well. A couple of months ago I took all the broken gearbox and engine parts from the last couple years experiments to the metal recycler. It was over 600lbs!


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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 08:59 PM
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Ya, I kept the pixie dust for myself. Be happy you got an elf!
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2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
You shouldn't be offended because of a "noob" comment regardless if it was directed at you or about you. It's all well and good and just a reality of the circumstances for many folks on this forum who are just not discovering the depths of the car/motor/etc I wise man knows what he doesn't know.

Just because Smokey Yunick knew his way forward and backward around a NASCAR V-8 back in the day doesn't mean he knows where the dipstick is in a Lotus. To be fair, I can walk you through every nook and cranny of a 2ZZ, but short of the firing order of a small block chebby, my knowledge base runs thin quick with it (who doesn't know 18436572 by heart though?).

Nevertheless, if you think in the past 10 years "we" didn't think about putting a 1900 on a 2ZZ or "doing more" with the 1320, then you would be mistaken. 1900, doesn't fit. It's a gargantuan. The 1320: pre-injection, more boost, bigger crank pulleys, spin the tar out of it, low compression, high compression, E85, C16, elves and pixie dust, porting, no porting, EGR heads, non-EGR heads, big cams, little cams, solid rockers, stock rockers, stroked 2L, standard stroke, long rod, standard rod, de-stroked 1.6L, 9,000 RPM, 10,000 RPM,
you name it... all old news. That's the noob in you as it relates to this forum, this marque, etc...


To be clear, I said the 1900 and 1320 doesn't "like" to make 20 psi boost. And they don't. They're blowers, not compressors and there's a difference. The efficiency of a TVS blows up there (no pun intended). Compressors are happier in that space, twin screws, turbos, etc... It's simply a matter of picking the right tool for the job. Further, it takes a 2.3L twin screw to make 25 psi in a 1.8L 2ZZ comfortably and you're right, I'm not that interested in making temporary power. I like sustained power. There's already a tried and trued temporary power maker. It's called Nitrous and it works great. I wouldn't spend a nickel trying to adapter the wrong part for the application when a little spray would do the trick better and cheaper.

To that end, there's math that goes behind all this. It's not just luck. It is true that the math only takes one so far before you just have to try it... the point of my post was that most things have been "tried" and that history is on this forum...

Cheers,

Phil
What's the difference between a "blower" and a "compressor"? How do you distinguish the two?

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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 12:20 AM Thread Starter
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anyone with a rev300 care to share a picture of their engine bay? I was wondering how big that SC is
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post #31 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
What's the difference between a "blower" and a "compressor"? How do you distinguish the two?
The compressor has internal compression ratio between the screws i.e. the thread pitch of the screws gets tighter from inlet to outlet. This allows the higher pressure ratios without losing efficiency. There are advantages to both. The TVS1320 is more efficient in the sweet-spot where it runs on the Rev300/400. Above 15-16psi it is not efficient. That is where a compressor, which is less efficient at lower pressure ratios starts to shine.


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post #32 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by fzust View Post
The compressor has internal compression ratio between the screws i.e. the thread pitch of the screws gets tighter from inlet to outlet. This allows the higher pressure ratios without losing efficiency. There are advantages to both. The TVS1320 is more efficient in the sweet-spot where it runs on the Rev300/400. Above 15-16psi it is not efficient. That is where a compressor, which is less efficient at lower pressure ratios starts to shine.
So, let's see if I've got this right. A roots type supercharger (ie TVS1320) you call a "compressor" and a centrifugal type supercharger (ie Rotrex C30-94) you call a blower?
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post #33 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 10:51 AM
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So, let's see if I've got this right. A roots type supercharger (ie TVS1320) you call a "compressor" and a centrifugal type supercharger (ie Rotrex C30-94) you call a blower?
Nope, not correct JJ. The TVS is a blower and a lysholm/whipple is a compressor. Wasn't saying anything about a centrifugal.


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post #34 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 02:33 PM
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Nope, not correct JJ. The TVS is a blower and a lysholm/whipple is a compressor. Wasn't saying anything about a centrifugal.
My bad...but I still don't understand the difference names.

BTW...what's with the "JJ"? Is that something like calling someone "Dave" or little Johnny on here?
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post #35 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-15-2017, 02:09 PM
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...A once previous owner subarurat did a low 11 on a stock motor even...
Hey that is my car now! (well, if you meant subarubrat aka Scott). I kind of destroyed that motor. Your team put a built motor in over last winter, and it is definitely faster now. I managed to get the old setup down a 1000' strip at around 9.9s, which is maybe high 11s in a 1/4. Guess I need to get back to the strip and see how much improvement I can measure.

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post #36 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-22-2017, 08:42 PM
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Gents, I've installed the BOE REV 300 myself and Phil sent an updated tune after some data logging. All I can say is that this setup (with their catch can) is a perfect fit. With Toyo R888s at the track (Fontana ACS) I manage to keep up with or ahead of all but the L6 stangs (until the turns where I catch up again). No clutch issues of trans issues.
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post #37 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Gents, I've installed the BOE REV 300 myself and Phil sent an updated tune after some data logging. All I can say is that this setup (with their catch can) is a perfect fit. With Toyo R888s at the track (Fontana ACS) I manage to keep up with or ahead of all but the L6 stangs (until the turns where I catch up again). No clutch issues of trans issues.
did you have to upgrade anything after the SC than?
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post #38 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 07:36 PM
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No other drive train mods, clutch etc. It's been 6 HOD events and lots of consistent fun!!!
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