How much do you expect to pay? - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-17-2003, 10:02 AM
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Without a doubt, it should be kept bare-bones. But I could see them adding the extras in the 2nd or 3rd year. Hopefully in a "touring" package. Once the die-hearts get one, to give it wider appeal & keep the sales up, TBD.
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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-17-2003, 07:16 PM
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I was really hoping that the Elise would see for under 35,000 .... honestly, I don't think its worth much more than that. Its a bare bones car that has no practicality. Look what you get with an S2000 or an MR Spyder for example. These are practical daily drivers that are performance oriented......


then again, if I wanted a practical sports car, i'd buy an S2000 or an MR Spyder.


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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-17-2003, 07:26 PM
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I am not sure what the point of practicality means. The Spyder is about as practical, as it has just about no storage, no cruise control. In that regard, the Elise may actually be more practical. The Elise is more spartan looking on the interior, but I think the materials are better than the stuff used on the Spyder.

Pricing is relative to volume and also engineering. I love the MR-2 Spyders, but there is a reason they are under $25k. I think it's apples and oranges really.

And volume. If Toyota only made as few Spyders as the Elise is being made, or will be made, the price would probably increase to amortize the engineering and tooling.

For me, I would rather pay more for a unique car. Sure a Miata would be cheaper, but I would rather have something different.

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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-17-2003, 09:50 PM
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On further thought, I think I can see your point better. The other cars are more refined and will probably be less finicky and troublesome. I think that is what you were referring to.

The Elise is more a racecar that is street legal.

#somethingwickedthiswaycomes... the new Origin Noble M and the Origin 7

Zenos E10S for Sale! www.zenosforsale.com

There are some very shady dealers in the Lotus business.

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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-17-2003, 10:05 PM
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What I meant to say is the S2000, MR Spyder and other cars like them are really good compromises. The suspension is set more for street than for track. There is actual sound deadening in the car to keep road noise and engine noise to a managable level. You can actually take these cars on trips and have a modicum of comfort. Service centers are all over the place and parts and maintenance is realistically priced. These cars are designed for the everyday sports car enthusiasts. And from my limited experience with the Elise, it is non of these things. But thats why I am getting the Elsise and not an S2000 or an MR Spyder.

Speaking of the Spyder, when I first saw one, I was amazed. I used to say that if you lighten up the car, stiffen up the suspension, and add an oil leak or an electrical problem, you could slap a Lotus badge on it and sell it for $20,000 more!

I guess part of my issue with the price is the fact that to this date, I haven't spent more than $8000 purchasing a car! The Elise will be my first new car.... my first car payment and first new car insurance rate!

But I still stand by what I say.... I really think that Lotus is marking up the price of the car for the US market. Considering the simplistic nature of the car.... there really isn't much to it, I think that $38,500 is a bit much. It isn't gonna stop me from owning one though.


BTW, if the Miata was anything like the Lotus in handling or power, I wouldn't even be here. I'm not brand loyal.

Actually, I kinda like having a common or "cheap" car, taking it to Streets of Willow and blowing the doors off of a Turbo Porsche! That's what I do in my 240z.

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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-17-2003, 10:06 PM
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funny Randy, we must be online at the same time.... didn't see your last reply till I posted!

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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 06:48 AM
 
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Guys,

I have absolutely no doubt that you are gonna pay a premium.

The list price for an Elise here is £ 22,995 for the std car that's NO options, no "delivery cost" (approx £ 500), so to take a pure base car and add metalic paint as your only option it's gonna cost you around £ 24,000. By the time you add a stereo, and a couple of small extras your gonna pay £ 25,000.

Take this as a base and at a rate of say $ 1.60 = £ 1.00 you guys will be paying $ 40,000 based on UK prices. Now the tax we pay on cars here in the UK is one of the higest in the world.

This £ 25,000 (ie $ 40,000) could buy here in the UK ;

A BMW 318SE
A Jeep Cherokee 3.7 v6 Ltd
A Honda S2000 (just)

What's do you guys pay for these cars, the difference is a very crude representation of the premium on the Lotus.
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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 08:07 AM
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I am little confused as to how $38.5k is a premium then. Are you saying that the loaded car as it is now is $40k in US dollars? I think we can safely assume that they are adding some content (A/C, stereo-CD, etc) and these add to the value.


For me, the cost of a car is not just a measure of the price when purchased. It's the return also when I sell it.

If I buy a car for $20k new and sell it 5 years later for $10k, it cost me $10k/5. If I spend $40k on a Elise and 5 years later I can sell it for $30k, it really didn't cost me any more than the $20k car. I expect the Elise to hold it's value pretty well.

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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 08:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jrgibb
Guys,

I have absolutely no doubt that you are gonna pay a premium.

The list price for an Elise here is £ 22,995 for the std car that's NO options, no "delivery cost" (approx £ 500), so to take a pure base car and add metalic paint as your only option it's gonna cost you around £ 24,000. By the time you add a stereo, and a couple of small extras your gonna pay £ 25,000.

Take this as a base and at a rate of say $ 1.60 = £ 1.00 you guys will be paying $ 40,000 based on UK prices. Now the tax we pay on cars here in the UK is one of the higest in the world.

This £ 25,000 (ie $ 40,000) could buy here in the UK ;

A BMW 318SE
A Jeep Cherokee 3.7 v6 Ltd
A Honda S2000 (just)

What's do you guys pay for these cars, the difference is a very crude representation of the premium on the Lotus.
Actually, the car that we'll be getting is a lot closer to the 111S that is offered in the UK. Performance should be between that of the 111S and the Sport190. Will the UK be getting the same for a base Elise in 2005?

The 111S goes for £ 27,995 in the UK, which is a good £ 5,000 over the base Elise. What would £ 30,000 buy in the UK? An Audi TT Roadster?
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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 08:22 AM
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My 2 cents on this: it's really kind of hard to say what the Elise is "worth", because there's nothing that compares in terms of what's available in the U.S. market. Consider this: these cars are pretty much handbuilt. Now this could be a good thing or a bad thing - modern robotics are able to put a car together very precisely and efficiently, but the hands-on approach has its pluses too. The reason they're handbuilt is because volume is and will remain (in terms of other manufacturers' numbers) very low. And, the revolutionary chassis design and fiberglass body is such that hand-building and hand assembly makes sense. So you are paying a "premium" for a specialty, low-volume car. An "exotic" car. There's some snob appeal in that for me, I'll readily admit.


The other (probably for most of us, more important) thing that makes this car special is that the performance will be well above anything else at a price point of just under 40K.

So, is it practical, or rational, to pay this kind of money for this kind of car ? Hell, no ! But who ever said that we were rational, anyway ? There is nothing rational about the Elise. And, that's okay !

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post #31 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 09:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jrgibb
Now the tax we pay on cars here in the UK is one of the higest in the world.
Talk about high taxes:

In Singapore, before you even think about getting the keys to your new car, you will need a COE(Certificate of Entitlement).
This alone will run you anywhere between US$17,000-US$23,000.
Mind you, this is just for the piece of paper that gives you the right to purchase a car.

The list price of a 118 BHP Elise in Singapore is around US$113,000. Factor in the COE, a brand new base Lotus Elise will cost you between US$130,000-US$136,000.(£83,000-£87,000) That's almost enough money to buy you 4 Elises in the UK.

Another example: a Hyundai Accent in the US is under US$10,000. The exact same car in Singapore costs between US$53,000-US$59,000.

The best-selling car in Singapore? The Mercedes-Benz.
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post #32 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 09:24 AM
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That's amazing ! And I thought that the Nordic countries had some of the most prohibitive taxes on car ownership (around 100% IIRC). So are all the taxes used to fund mass transit, or other projects, or just a way to discourage car ownership ?

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post #33 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 10:16 AM
 
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Forget about Singapore

To clarify the point I was making and why I gave some examples is that you guys pay less for your cars than us therefore as the price for the Elise is going to be similar in actual money terms there is a premium ;

I've had a look around the net, the cars i've listed cost approx 17% less in the US therefore a 17% premium on the Elise.

Hardly scientific but you get the idea.
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post #34 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 10:31 AM
 
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Originally posted by mikester
So are all the taxes used to fund mass transit, or other projects, or just a way to discourage car ownership ?
All of the above, but mostly to curb the number of cars on the road. With the same population as Los Angeles and only about half the land area, something has to be done!

Singapore has one of the cleanest and most efficient subway systems, the MRT(Mass Rapid Transit), in the world, plus a state-of-the-art bus transit whose operation is governed by satellite systems.

Last edited by ACBC; 03-18-2003 at 10:57 AM.
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post #35 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jrgibb
I've had a look around the net, the cars i've listed cost approx 17% less in the US therefore a 17% premium on the Elise.
Even at that, it still appears that we're getting a.. uhh... "bargain" over here considering this:
  • 111S in UK == £27,995 == $43,850 (according to www.xe.com/ucc). FYI: $38,500 == £24,580
  • It's is VERY expensive to go through the DOT, EPA, NHTSA, etc. certification process (not to mention import tariffs - do we still do that with Europe?) - that expense is going to be spread over the cost of all the cars being sold, but at only 2500 cars a year, one would think that it would make a noticable difference.
  • They still have to get the little buggers over here - granted, destination charges may be tacked on to the MSRP, but that usually only covers trucking (not boating ).
  • Complete guess here, but I can imagine that the Toyota engine is more expensive than the Rover engine for Lotus to purchase (I could be completely off base here, but it's something to think about).
Comparatively, I don't think we're getting the shaft. Is it worth $38.5K? Hard to say - I can say that I will happily pay it (grinning from ear to ear) when it comes time to pick the thing up.
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post #36 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-18-2003, 10:38 PM
 
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Brian,

I don't think your gonna get shafted, I just agree with the general comments that there's a premium on the car, I don't think it's going to be a big one, particularly given that you will be getting the "new" Elise ie with the new power unit.

If it stays at that price range (approx. $ 38,000), your gonna be getting a pretty good deal.
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post #37 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-27-2003, 06:49 PM
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I expect Lotus to offer the Elise at or very near the projected price if it expects to meet its sales target.

At that price, I assume Lotus will need to sell to more than just the car enthusiasts that lurk on this forum for Proton to make a profit. That means it will need to steal market share from the TT, Z4, S2000, SLK, Boxster, and, probably to a lesser extent, the Miata, MR2, WRX, Z, RX-8, and maybe even the Corvette.

The enthusiast will know better, but at its current price point, the marketing folks have a decent challenge on their hands in dealing with the U.S. market:

* 4 cyl. engine (stigma of not having a V6 or V8; are there other $40k cars w/a 4 cyl?)
* < 200 hp (>200 hp is so common now in the U.S.; even a $19.9k Neon has 215 hp)
* looks (I suspect many will not be fond of the Elise's edgy/busy style)
* possible lack of ABS (now Accords come standard with ABS)
* size & crash worthiness vs. a 3-4 ton SUV
* lack of power windows (Americans are lazy)
* difficulty of fat Americans getting into the car
* smaller trunk than a Miata
* smaller dealer network (how many will actually know where their Lotus dealer is?)
* insurance cost (what bumper?)
* Lotus brand (British reliability perception; may be somewhat offset with a Japanese engine)
* Lotus brand (cost perception; people are always surprised when I tell them the projected price of the Elise--"oh, that's not that bad")

With that said, I believe the Elise will be a success here--maybe not a huge success, but at least profitable. What will sell the Elise:

* Lotus brand (Lotus=fast to most people; exclusivity factor)
* zillions of accolades by the press
* performance data
* gas mileage (maybe Lotus is praying for even higher gas prices)
* the huge grins on Elise drivers' faces as they zoom past other cars

I can't wait for my huge grin.

--
Dan

Last edited by Dan; 03-27-2003 at 07:02 PM.
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post #38 of 39 (permalink) Old 03-28-2003, 07:14 AM
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I agree with Dan, the Elise will be a "niche" car, that is a relative rarity/exotic car by virtue of it's "drawbacks" (or, advantages depending on your point of view). And that should be just fine with Lotus/Proton, since they only plan on selling 2.5 thousand units in the U.S. per year. That's just a very small drop in a very large bucket, compared to U.S. auto sales. It still gets them a presence here, and a substantially larger presence than they have with the current model, the Esprit.

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post #39 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-04-2003, 04:04 AM
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