I'm Selling An Elise on Ebay! - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #41 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 08:55 AM
 
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Originally posted by JonM3Coupe
I like the spirit of Steve's ad, but his comments about the dollar and Elise production capacity are rather brazen and speculative. They are not helpful comments for an ignorant Elise buyer who really needs handholding in order to make the best decisions.
Exactly my point... I don't like liars regardless of who they are. Sorry to see so many here don't understand the simple fact that two wrongs do not make a right.

My view of this whole matter has been consistent. I see nothing wrong with selling a spot if allowed by your dealer, provided you are not misleading anyone. I do not intend to sell my spot... I want my car. I do hope for a good resale as I usually get totally $crewed.

I think what's funny is that most of you here will change your view and actually hope for a price increase once you have your car. You will understandable even hope that when itís time to sell you can get everything you invested and then some. When this does happen you will fall into a category know as hypocrites... and I shall be laughing my a$$ off.

PS: To the self-righteous out there: Feel free to ignore my comments youíre 100% right to support the flagrant lies that are posted on those EBay Ads (note I make no distinction between one liars ad and anotherís)

Last edited by Derek; 03-21-2004 at 09:24 AM.
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post #42 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 09:13 AM
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Here's my take...

Many of you have been waiting a LONG time for the Elise. And by LONG, I mean since the middle of 2003 and earlier, before the articles about the Federal Elise hitting the shores started appearing in major magazines like Motor Trend and everyone started jumping on the bandwagon.

I think many of you are jealous that someone can come along and "cut in line", so to speak, for the right to buy a car before you get yours. And on top of that, someone is making a few bucks in the deal

And there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this practice. It's called capitalism.

If someone was smarter than you to go ahead and reserve 2 or 3 spots at different dealers, then who's losing out on the deal. YOU! And because some of you weren't clever enough or had the financial means to do the same yourself, you're pissed.

The good news, is that many people reserved spots at multiple dealers, because they were speculating that some dealers would get more cars than others. OR... people reserved cars without the financial means to back their purchase. The result is that many of us are being bumped UP in sequence and will get a car earlier than originally expected.

Now, that being said, I do have a problem with people posting ads with something for sale, with many of the details left our, nebulous or incorrect facts, or promises that are difficult to keep.

Flame on!

Last edited by qball; 03-21-2004 at 10:21 AM.
post #43 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 09:23 AM
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If someone was smarter than you to go ahead and reserve 2 or 3 spots at different dealers, then who's losing out on the deal. YOU! And because you weren't clever enough or had the financial means to do the same yourself, you're pissed.
Does that make someone smarter than me??? The idea had crossed my mind for a brief moment, but I decided against it. While I have the financial means, and I do like making money, I prefer to do it other ways...
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post #44 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 09:25 AM
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If someone was smarter than you to go ahead and reserve 2 or 3 spots at different dealers, then who's losing out on the deal. YOU! And because you weren't clever enough or had the financial means to do the same yourself, you're pissed.

Perhaps some. I do think that there are people who act on principal.

I told people back in January 2002.... many people... if you have any interest in the Elise, get on the waiting list now. It's a small deposit, and worst case, your deposit will be worth $5-10k when the car arrives. I think I was right.

I knew I could get more than one deposit. The $1000 refundable payment was not an issue. I was pretty sure that if I did get more deposits, I could sell them for a very nice profit.

I did not because for me, it was not right to do so. That is just for me. Unlike some others, I don't project as much my perspectives onto other people.

I just wanted to point out that some of us might have been clever enough and had the financial means to do so, still chose not to. But then I am not upset as other people also about someone "cutting" in line. More power to them.

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post #45 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 10:22 AM
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Yeah.. I didn' t mean that EVERYONE feels this way, but I know there are those out there.

Oh.. and I'm not one of the e-bayers.

I made a reservation at one dealer, and then found another with a shorter list.

I went on the second dealers list and canceled the first order.
post #46 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Derek,

Your immaturity in this matter is surprising to me. You really think that my optimistic speculations are "flagrant lies"? Or are you just so upset that I'm getting congratulatory remarks from others that you have to be a spoil-sport about it?

I'd like to explain two of my more speculative statements (which Derek continues to attack) to those others of you who seem to agree that they're not valid:
  1. "Lotus is capable of building 10,000 elises per year." True they are only building 2500 this year. True they have no plans for building more. However, they have the capability of building more. You really believe that if they get a waiting list of 10,000 buyers they're going to stay at 2500 per year? No way! I don't think they would keep a wait list more than 1 to 2 years out. That would just be dumb business.
  2. "The dollar's value is poised to rise rather than to fall." Well, I dunno, maybe I'm wrong... I get my figures from business publications. I guess that makes me a liar. We're currently at 1.83 USD per 1 GBP. 12 month forecasts show that ratio going down to as much as 1.5 USD to 1 GBP. That's a significant increase in USD value !!! Apply that to the price of an Elise, and you're talking a $32,700 sticker price!

So Derek, explain to me how you believe that I'm a liar. Please quote some kind of facts if you're going to continue attacking me.

To everyone else who questions this, I think that my eBay ad, as an "advisory", gives good advice, based upon facts, not emotions, even if a bit optimistic.

As for why I didn't do a Dutch auction at a penny, I'm just not that experienced selling on eBay, and I honestly didn't consider it. I don't really plan on taking anyone's money with this, and I'm going to post the full rulebook to my site when I make it.



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post #47 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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PS - does anyone want to help me write this thing? I'm sure there are many of you who could provide much better advice than I could to people who are looking to buy an elise deposit on ebay.



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post #48 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally posted by transio
Derek,

Your immaturity in this matter is surprising to me. You really think that my optimistic speculations are "flagrant lies"? Or are you just so upset that I'm getting congratulatory remarks from others that you have to be a spoil-sport about it?

I'd like to explain two of my more speculative statements (which Derek continues to attack) to those others of you who seem to agree that they're not valid:
  1. "Lotus is capable of building 10,000 elises per year." True they are only building 2500 this year. True they have no plans for building more. However, they have the capability of building more. You really believe that if they get a waiting list of 10,000 buyers they're going to stay at 2500 per year? No way! I don't think they would keep a wait list more than 1 to 2 years out. That would just be dumb business.
  2. "The dollar's value is poised to rise rather than to fall." Well, I dunno, maybe I'm wrong... I get my figures from business publications. I guess that makes me a liar. We're currently at 1.83 USD per 1 GBP. 12 month forecasts show that ratio going down to as much as 1.5 USD to 1 GBP. That's a significant increase in USD value !!! Apply that to the price of an Elise, and you're talking a $32,700 sticker price!

So Derek, explain to me how you believe that I'm a liar. Please quote some kind of facts if you're going to continue attacking me.

To everyone else who questions this, I think that my eBay ad, as an "advisory", gives good advice, based upon facts, not emotions, even if a bit optimistic.

As for why I didn't do a Dutch auction at a penny, I'm just not that experienced selling on eBay, and I honestly didn't consider it. I don't really plan on taking anyone's money with this, and I'm going to post the full rulebook to my site when I make it.
You state your speculation as though they are facts. That is what I have a problem with. Had you said for example "it is likely" instead of "it will" I would have no problem with your post. But you did not. This small mis-phasing of words could be misleading to the uninformed.

I understand where you are coming form with this but I also know from your previous post that you have an axe to grid. Plus it's one thing to disapprove of someone's activities from your moral perspective but a whole other matter to actively go out of your way to prevent their success.

I do not approve of these EBay spot seller... But also am suspect of the motivation behind your action.
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post #49 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 03:27 PM
 
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Originally posted by transio
PS - does anyone want to help me write this thing? I'm sure there are many of you who could provide much better advice than I could to people who are looking to buy an elise deposit on ebay.

If I helped you would that be like Yu Law defeating Gabe Law or vice versa in 'The One' with Jet Li?

I think the universe might implode and we would all die....
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post #50 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Derek
You state your speculation as though they are facts. That is what I have a problem with. Had you said for example "it is likely" instead of "it will"
When I said "If the exchange rate changes it will be for the better" I don't think anyone could read that as anything other than speculation. Anyone who knows anything about exchange rates knows that any prediction of change is speculative. However, the difference is that my speculation is based in fact. That is, when every business publication you read says "the dollar is likely to increase in value" and you say "the dollar will increase in value", you're not flat out lying. It's just a colloquial way of saying "I think it's gonna do this or that" - but it wasn't my intention to state it like a fact. Unfortunately, I can't go back and change the minute wording that you're picking on, because there are bids on the auction. I did add to the description though, to explain my intended meaning.

Quote:
I do not approve of these EBay spot seller... But also am suspect of the motivation behind your action.
What motivation could I possibly have? I have my contract for an Elise at MSRP plus about $200 dealer fee. I have nothing to gain by posting that auction, other than the satisfaction that I might help out someone who would bid on an auction for a deposit without knowing all the facts. Believe it or not, I'm not out for myself on this one.




Last edited by smoseley; 03-21-2004 at 03:51 PM.
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post #51 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by transio

  1. "Lotus is capable of building 10,000 elises per year." True they are only building 2500 this year. True they have no plans for building more. However, they have the capability of building more. You really believe that if they get a waiting list of 10,000 buyers they're going to stay at 2500 per year? No way! I don't think they would keep a wait list more than 1 to 2 years out. That would just be dumb business.
  2. "The dollar's value is poised to rise rather than to fall." Well, I dunno, maybe I'm wrong... I get my figures from business publications. I guess that makes me a liar. We're currently at 1.83 USD per 1 GBP. 12 month forecasts show that ratio going down to as much as 1.5 USD to 1 GBP. That's a significant increase in USD value !!! Apply that to the price of an Elise, and you're talking a $32,700 sticker price!
Ah, if only business journalists had been better soothsayers -- or perhaps more honest soothsayers -- before the dot-com bubble burst. Back at the height of the dot-com boom, I had about $60,000 in stock options. Then I saw my company's stock go from about $12 a share to 65 cents a share in about 60 days time. Yes, I was expecting a fall at some point. But if you had asked me what the worst-case scenario was, I would have said it could plummet as far as $5 a share in two months time. (The drop left me with near-worthless options, BTW.) My point being: We have no idea what will happen to the dollar. If some type of major world event forces us into even greater deficit spending, the dollar would plummet further, I presume. (IF ONLY WE COULD CONTROL THE WORLD!!!)

As for a 10,000 production capacity, we all know that if someone came on this board, and wrote, "Lotus is capable of building 10,000 elises per year," that person would be flamed mercilessly, up, down and sideways. So I don't think it's wise or fair to set a different standard for the witless chowder heads who search ebay for sports car deals.
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post #52 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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That's not fair, Jon. Just because someone is naive doesn't make him or her a "witless chowder head"



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post #53 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 05:13 PM
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Hey Transio,

You shoulf contribute the proceeds of this auction to elisetalk...or a future elise club (preferably based on elisetalk).

That way I wont feel like you are ripping off the general ignorant masses by making a profit on such an auction

Although, I definetly apreciate that you forward people to websites that can be educational so as to avoid scams on deposit purchases.

Long live the
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post #54 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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MW,

Good point - although currently in payment instructions it says "payment not accepted". When I relist the auction, I'll mention that the proceeds will go to ET.



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post #55 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 05:25 PM
 
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When I relist the auction, I'll mention that the proceeds will go to ET.
ET phoned home and got onto his mother ship 20 years ago. I have not heard from him lately. Maybe the money should go to a charity; there got to be groups out there searching for aliens in other space all the time.
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post #56 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-21-2004, 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by transio
That's not fair, Jon. Just because someone is naive doesn't make him or her a "witless chowder head"
I plead poetic license!
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post #57 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-22-2004, 09:52 AM
 
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Reminds me of 'baseball' cards... Someone who collects them is always screaming - this card is 'worth' hundreds of dollars. When it fact, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I personally would not spend hundreds of dollars for a piece of cardboard with a picture on it.

Same goes for the Elise and ebay. Any can sell their spot or car, if there's someone willing to pay for it. Hey, that's how this economy works.

Me, if only $3k was the difference between getting an Elise in June versus having to wait until next year... I'd spend it, perhaps even more.
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post #58 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-22-2004, 11:23 AM
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If I were attempting to sell a delivery spot on Ebay, I'd be upset by Steve's ad. The information it contains is pure speculation, and does nothing except hurt the chances of someone selling their spot. Nobody's forcing buyers to bid on these, they're doing it because they're willing to pay money to get a car earlier. What's wrong with either end of the deal? I certainly don't hold a grudge against anyone who wants to make a little money for putting a deposit on a car before the word got out. This is America, and what is happening is the same thing you see at a flea market every weekend, for those who would admit to attending one.

Steve, I honestly think it's in poor taste to post such an ad, because people might believe what you have to say in the ad. Remember, there are people in this country who voted for Bill Clinton twice, and there may even be people who vote for Bush twice. If I were you, I'd pull the ad and let capitalism run its course.

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post #59 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-22-2004, 11:57 AM
 
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If I was EBay or a shareholder of EBay stock I would be angry. They get a commission for each item sold on their site. Now consider that these spots have been fetching $10k each... Hmmm can you say lost revenue?

The icing on this cake is of course the fact that he is using (abusing) EBay as a place to voice his opinion instead of using it as a place to conduct business. Read his payment terms. He states "Payment not accepted". So what did EBay and their shareholder do to deserve this?

Like I've said time and time before (and been flamed for): It's one thing to voice your opinion on a public forum designed for that, but quite another matter to actively go out of your way to ensure someone who you don't know fails in their venture.

Whatís next post your political views on Ebay too?

What if people took a similar attitude with this site and started to post ads for their websites or totally irrelevant topics in the Elise discussion section. Would that be OK? Would everyone be cheering them on? If you can say yes to this then donít complain when it happens. But if you approve of Steveís Ebay ad but wouldnít approve of this site being misused (abused) then you are a hypocrite plain and simple.
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post #60 of 101 (permalink) Old 03-22-2004, 11:59 AM
 
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You can always short Ebay.

Capitalism does not mean any means to make a buck is good. What these Ebay sellers are doing is front-running the legitimate buyers. Think of them are your market maker, who knowing that a client is buying say Cisco, purchased CSCO before the client and resell to the same client and scalp a profit. It is quite an illegal activity, and the end result is an inefficient distribution of capital.

But guess what, many market makers do such illegal activities and appear to be getting away with it. Recently, some market timing schemes were busted by the SEC. But there are a lot more schemes out there.

In fact, what some of you guys refer to capitalism is NOT capitalism in a philosophical sense, but the American version of capitalism -- which is any form of stealing is great as long as you can get away with it. Maybe this falls onto the category of "I'm number one" or "Do whatever it takes."

So, who are the hypocrites here?

Quote:
Originally posted by Derek
If I was EBay or a shareholder of EBay stock I would be angry. They get a commission for each item sold on their site. Now consider that these spots have been fetching $10k each... Hmmm can you say lost revenue?

The icing on this cake is of course the fact that he is using (abusing) EBay as a place to voice his opinion instead of using it as a place to conduct business. Read his payment terms. He states "Payment not accepted". So what did EBay and their shareholder do to deserve this?

Like I've said time and time before (and been flamed for): It's one thing to voice your opinion on a public forum designed for that, but quite another matter to actively go out of your way to ensure someone who you don't know fails in their venture.

Whatís next post your political views on Ebay too?

What if people took a similar attitude with this site and started to post ads for their websites or totally irrelevant topics in the Elise discussion section. Would that be OK? Would everyone be cheering them on? If you can say yes to this then donít complain when it happens. But if you approve of Steveís Ebay ad but wouldnít approve of this site being misused (abused) then you are a hypocrite plain and simple.

Last edited by agent.5; 03-22-2004 at 03:14 PM.
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