Oil with ZDDP for Elise? - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 10:31 AM
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Whats funny to me is that if we take the same engine and put it in a celica, no one is talking about <insert fancy brand here> oil.

Anyway, as stated earlier ZDDP thoughts are all around trying to prevent cam wiping. Just so we can repeat history faithfully here, reasons for cam wiping that have been discussed prior:

Bad batches of cams
Not enough zddp in oil
misaligned oil squirters
oil of too low a temperature

I can understand that continually wiping cams would be a maddening issue to be tracking down so if you've got that problem I can't blame you for trying anything and everything.
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post #22 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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The fixation on flat tappets is myopic, there are other applications where ZDDP is believed to be beneficial, e.g., modified motors and race applications. Not saying non-ZDDP light oils aren't capable of providing the anti-wear characteristics necessary, but again, oil selection should be determined by the application - there is no panacea.

RE clogging cats, phosphorous level regulation via lower ZDDP is to ensure cats last 100k miles. Slightly higher levels of ZDDP in oils like the Mobil 1 referenced above probably won't diminish that interval by too much.
Mobil 1 is a good choice...the ZDDP is not that high.....too much ZPPP can actually increase wear.

Where , in a racing motor with a modern valve train .eg. self adjusting hydraulic lifters etc. does increased ZDDP help with wear?
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post #23 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 12:00 PM
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MGK, Motul makes many different wt oils. I think most people would be interested in their 5-30,5-40,0-40. Someone mentioned Mobil 5-40 turbo diesel was the cat's meow years past. Has that fallen out of favor? Rustyb
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post #24 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 12:35 PM
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I'm still using Mobil 1 5w-40 Turbo diesel oil.

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post #25 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Reiver View Post
Mobil 1 is a good choice...the ZDDP is not that high.....too much ZPPP can actually increase wear.

Where , in a racing motor with a modern valve train .eg. self adjusting hydraulic lifters etc. does increased ZDDP help with wear?
The purpose and benefit of ZDDP is to prevent metal-on-metal wear on highly loaded components susceptible to boundary film lubrication conditions; what I mean is that's more of a concern in a race motor than a DD
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post #26 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rustyb View Post
MGK, Motul makes many different wt oils. I think most people would be interested in their 5-30,5-40,0-40. Someone mentioned Mobil 5-40 turbo diesel was the cat's meow years past. Has that fallen out of favor? Rustyb
An oil specifically blended for turbo diesel engines is never a good idea to use in a petrol engine. Enough said!

Viscosity is a given, that suspends everything in a hydrodynamic bearing. If we could blend water with something to get us the viscosity of oil, that will suspend everything equally well in a hydrodynamic bearing when everything is working. Here's the rub; the engine isn't magically started and kept running to infuse the the water as a lubricant. The other problem is that engines don't just have hydrodynamic bearings, they have pistons, piston rings and tappets that need to be lubricated also. Here is where the ware protection qualities of an oil come in. But!!!! These qualities are not written on the bottle and not advertised. The ware protection quality of an oil is not ranked/rated so you could shop for it....easily.

There are lots of companies that make lots of good oils. Ware protection is kind of like HP. Just because you have 564RWHP and drive it on the streets only, that engine will probably never see its full potential. As is the ware protection quality of an oil. Just because brand X has less than brand Y does not mean that brand X won't be satisfactory in your engine. And just because brand Y had more, does not mean that your engine will last longer with it.

Like I said earlier, I can buy a race oil at a significant cost, but I buy the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 at significantly less money with just about the best ware protection...and readily available.

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post #27 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by acslater View Post
The purpose and benefit of ZDDP is to prevent metal-on-metal wear on highly loaded components susceptible to boundary film lubrication conditions; what I mean is that's more of a concern in a race motor than a DD
I agree about a racing lump needing more sacrificial elements....but I'd want a racing oil with higher levels than Mobil 1.
Mobil 1 would be sufficient for a DD certainly...but most oils do carry a level of ZDDP and the detergents/anti corrosives a DD requires..and the longevity package.
Most every oil listed here is good...pick your poison.

My only comment is that a high zddp oil is not required for the street unless you have flat tappets.
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post #28 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 02:31 PM
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BOE touts/sells Redline 10W-40 Oil, not the race oil also sold:

This is appropriate oil for most high-performance street and track applications. It's perfectly suited for mixed use of both daily driving, track days, DEs, and autocross for ALL Lotus models with the Toyota 2ZZ-GE based Lotus cars. This oil can be ran for extended run intervals between changes, which makes it not only excellent engine protection but a great value as well. Redline Race oil is one of the only true Polyol Ester Group 5 based oils available and provides unsurpassed engine protection. Additionally, high Zinc and Phosphorus quantities help to protect the sensitive 2ZZ-GE intake cams and cylinder walls.

This is 1 case or 12 quarts of Redline 10w40 Engine Oil

Contains no less than 1300ppm Zinc and 1200ppm Phosphorus for superior wear protection
Fully-synthetic ester formula for passenger cars, light trucks, performance vehicles and marine applications
Excellent wear protection and friction reduction across a wide range of operating conditions
High detergency allows extended drain intervals and provides increased cleanliness
Improved fuel economy and ring seal for more power
Superior high temperature stability and oxidation resistance increases lubrication of hot metal compared to other synthetics
High natural viscosity index (VI) provides thicker oil film in bearings and cams
Less evaporation than other synthetics for improved efficiency and ring seal
All products are completely compatible with other conventional and synthetic motor oils
TYPICAL PROPERTIES

API Service Class SN/SM/SL/SG/CF
Viscosity Grade SAE 10W40
Vis @ 100C, cSt 14.6
Vis @ 40C, cSt 93
Viscosity Index 164
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C [email protected]
Pour Point, C -45
Pour Point, F F
Flash Point, C 248
Flash Point, F 478
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482F (250C), % 6
HTHS Vis, cP @150C, ASTM D4741 4.7

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post #29 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater View Post
The purpose and benefit of ZDDP is to prevent metal-on-metal wear on highly loaded components susceptible to boundary film lubrication conditions; what I mean is that's more of a concern in a race motor than a DD
I agree about a racing lump needing more sacrificial elements....but I'd want a racing oil with higher levels than Mobil 1.
Mobil 1 would be sufficient for a DD certainly...but most oils do carry a level of ZDDP and the detergents/anti corrosives a DD requires..and the longevity package.
Most every oil listed here is good...pick your poison.

My only comment is that a high zddp oil is not required for the street unless you have flat tappets.
You literally asked: Where , in a racing motor with a modern valve train .eg. self adjusting hydraulic lifters etc. does increased ZDDP help with wear?

I was responding to that exactly. As far as my initial statement, you began with the premise that the only use for ZDDP was for flat tappet engines. I said thats too narrow of a heuristic. Oil selection depends on application and the value of ZDDP in a motor is in anti-wear, which it is very good at.

People use high ZDDP in Elises because the cams wipe. While the low speed lobe rests on a needle bearing, the high speed one rests on a spring loaded slipper follower, which is where the failure happens. I dont think its stupid to use high levels of ZDDP to try and mitigate valvetrain wear and I dont think its stupid to use good oil with a little more ZDDP for anti-wear in general.

Whether its effective at slowing or mitigating the cam wiping problem is up for debate as there isnt data available at any sort of significant level to make a determination. You CAN eliminate the VVTi and use roller rockers to eliminate wipe, however.
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post #30 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 03:59 PM
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At the risk of veering off topic:
What's the verdict on Mazda's 0w 20 with the Molybdenum that stays in suspension (that Castrol makes for them). They swear its the lowest friction factor oil you can get. You can void your warranty by not using it. Those "sky-active" (whatever the hell that is) engines of theirs do get great gas mileage.
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post #31 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by acslater View Post
You literally asked: Where , in a racing motor with a modern valve train .eg. self adjusting hydraulic lifters etc. does increased ZDDP help with wear?

I was responding to that exactly. As far as my initial statement, you began with the premise that the only use for ZDDP was for flat tappet engines. I said thats too narrow of a heuristic. Oil selection depends on application and the value of ZDDP in a motor is in anti-wear, which it is very good at.

People use high ZDDP in Elises because the cams wipe. While the low speed lobe rests on a needle bearing, the high speed one rests on a spring loaded slipper follower, which is where the failure happens. I dont think its stupid to use high levels of ZDDP to try and mitigate valvetrain wear and I dont think its stupid to use good oil with a little more ZDDP for anti-wear in general.

Whether its effective at slowing or mitigating the cam wiping problem is up for debate as there isnt data available at any sort of significant level to make a determination. You CAN eliminate the VVTi and use roller rockers to eliminate wipe, however.
Is there a gap on the spring loaded slipper follower or is it a constant contact set up?

Talking to just two Lotus mechanics there is not a consensus that it is the lack of ZDDP that leads to cam wiping...they leant toward oil starvation with improperly adjusted oil squinters. OTOH, using an oil with a reasonable level of ZDDP can not hurt either but will not help if the issue is starvation.

I am sure you have more experience in this Lotus realm than I but if cams were wiping due to low ZDDP then, imo, it would be much more common as most Toyota owners have no idea what ZDDP is....and most oils do not run a significant amount as they once did.

I guess the question to ask is have folks experienced a wiped cam while running a high ZDDP oil....
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post #32 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 04:57 PM
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My good friends, a Toyota engineer, researched this for me yrs ago and found that those cars do not suffer much, if at all, from wiped cams.

My XRS (same drivetrain) calls for 5W-30, has no oil coolers. Both cars bought in '05.

If I had to guess, I'd go with too low oil temps. Moreover, I always wait 15-20 minutes (minimum) after each engine reaches correct coolant temp.

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post #33 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 05:07 PM
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This thread seems doomed. If I were asking about oil, I'd be on a different site (no offense).

https://bobistheoilguy.com/

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post #34 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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My good friends, a Toyota engineer, researched this for me yrs ago and found that those cars do not suffer much, if at all, from wiped cams.

My XRS (same drivetrain) calls for 5W-30, has no oil coolers. Both cars bought in '05.

If I had to guess, I'd go with too low oil temps. Moreover, I always wait 15-20 minutes (minimum) after each engine reaches correct coolant temp.

Elise: 82k miles. XRS, 51k.
Could be...I am not buying into the low ZDDP issue here...but that is a non scientific opinion. I suspect the variable cam still has a constant contact application...so a lack of oil flow (properly heated) or miss aligned oil squirters (again, lack of flow) seems to make more sense to me.

Again, I am a neophyte with the 1.8 L...but it is a sweet little lump and I want to keep it healthy....just a good syn 5-40 should do.....and, considering the factory put a limiter on the cold rpm range (do you think they know something?) warm it up beyond the water temp...water temp does not equate oil temps.....and hope your valve train oil source is properly functioning. This would be a good car for an oil temp/pressure gauge I'd guess. I hate idiot lights.

I'll save the zddp oil for my Porsche.

Last edited by Reiver; 12-14-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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post #35 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-14-2017, 07:00 PM
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I thought ZDPP was reduced in most oils because its not good for the cat. How long it takes to damage a cat I have no idea.

My eliise has never been a daily. In its 8k miles probably 5k+ have been on track pretty much flat out redline shifts, and any road driving uses the second cam here and there. In that time the car has gone through 2 sets of rotors, numerous pads, lots of tires, shocks rebuilt etc.

I have only ever run Motul single ester 10/40 changed every 3 track days and always every year before storage. To date even if run hard for hundreds of miles on track over days it burns zero oil.

The cam issue, to me its a combination of not such good cam material and warmup. I think it takes a long long time to get oil up to reasonable temperature. The syncro problem on some boxes is a combination of too long between tranny oil changes and once again temp.

There is probabaly a tendancy with these cars to treat them like regular street cars, minimal warmup and then drive off, shortly after which water up to temp people go into the second cam and or fast shifting.

The best thing you can do for any motor is keep oil fresh and do sufficient warmups. 500 track miles is a lot harder on motor and oil than 5k road miles.
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post #36 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-15-2017, 06:22 AM
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Talking to just two Lotus mechanics there is not a consensus that it is the lack of ZDDP that leads to cam wiping...they leant toward oil starvation with improperly adjusted oil squinters. OTOH, using an oil with a reasonable level of ZDDP can not hurt either but will not help if the issue is starvation.
I think you have it backwards. People are not generally saying the lack of ZDDP leads to cam wiping. Rather, they are hoping more ZDDP will help the cam wiping problem. Perhaps seems a subtle difference, but using more ZDDP is the effect, rather than lack of ZDDP being the cause. ZDDP is helpful with flat tappets as you have suggested, but that is not the only single reason to ever use ZDDP. There is a film that it leaves, and anytime where you would have had metal on metal contact, the film provides some protection.

Regarding the cam wiping cause, I haven't seen anything I could term as scientific evidence from anyone. There is only speculation, but much of it is reasonable. However, it is not reasonable, in my worthless opinion, to think it is an oil starvation issue. The Celica & XRS for instance use the same motor, but don't have this problem. I have seen the pictures demonstrating the mis-aligned oil squirter theory, but if the issue was purely integral to the motor, it would seem logical that the issue would impact the motor regardless of chassis. Where the 2ZZ seems to show oil starvation issues is high Gs when cornering with r comp tires, starving the oil pickup itself, and in those cases it is typically damaging to more of the valve train, not just the cam.

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...just a good syn 5-40 should do.....and, considering the factory put a limiter on the cold rpm range (do you think they know something?) warm it up beyond the water temp...water temp does not equate oil temps...
Quote:
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My good friends, a Toyota engineer, researched this for me yrs ago and found that those cars do not suffer much, if at all, from wiped cams... If I had to guess, I'd go with too low oil temps.
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I thought ZDPP was reduced in most oils because its not good for the cat...
The cam issue, to me its a combination of not such good cam material and warmup. I think it takes a long long time to get oil up to reasonable temperature.
My understanding is also that the decreased ZDDP in the later oil specs was to preserve cats, therefore helping emissions control working as intended. This temp combined with cam material theory seems most likely to me. The other cars that have this motor don't have the same oil cooling setup that the Lotus chassis does, and I suspect get their oil up to proper operating temp faster.

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This thread seems doomed. If I were asking about oil, I'd be on a different site (no offense).
https://bobistheoilguy.com/
Every oil thread is doomed! +1 on Bob's oil site, there is lots of good info there. Just about every car forum I've been on periodically has "yet another oil thread". It's something that almost any level of car enthusiast knows at least a little about, so there are a lot of opinions. It's a seemingly simple issue that turns out to have a lot of complexity for those that wish to dive deep into it. I have spent more hours of my life than is probably sane reading and researching about oils! In the end, I don't mind the oil threads, although I'm not a fan of the posts that claim they have the one and only answer. I've run lots of oils and the thing that seems most important is having enough of it, and changing it often enough. The rest is just conversation, and nearly anything car related is an enjoyable topic for me.

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post #37 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-15-2017, 06:24 AM
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An oil specifically blended for turbo diesel engines is never a good idea to use in a petrol engine. Enough said!
Per Mobil, Mobil1 TDT oil can also be used in gas engine.

"Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck also meets the API SM specification for gasoline engines used in mixed fleets."

https://www.mobil.com/english-us/pas...sel-truck-5w40
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post #38 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-15-2017, 07:13 AM
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@TedR You are saying the words "full synthetic" on the label are not sufficient, it must have the FS logo? I have not heard this before, can you cite a source? Not doubting, just want to learn more about the ways I'm being screwed out of a dollar...
Yes, the "FS" is new and different. The old 0-40 was supposed to be phased out.

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post #39 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-15-2017, 07:51 AM
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Oh, and for those that say this is not a flat tappet engine, that is not correct. The high speed cam lobe rides on a flat (okay, curved) tappet. It is metal on metal, no roller bearings like the low speed cam lobe.


I have no proof, but my money's on the cam wiping being caused by a mix of cool/cold oil temperatures and 27-feet of oil line with all the restriction that go along with it.


I have looked into the oil squirters in the valve cover but for my specific cam wiping, the squirters all looked to be aligned correctly and all four intake cam lobes showed wear. The oil squirter theory was around the #3(?) squirter being misaligned and only the 3# cam lobe wiping.
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post #40 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-15-2017, 08:02 AM
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Oh, and for those that say this is not a flat tappet engine, that is not correct. The high speed cam lobe rides on a flat (okay, curved) tappet. It is metal on metal, no roller bearings like the low speed cam lobe.
Yep, I mentioned this above, too. My rocker after significant wiping:


I went with the Ferrea solid rockers on my BOE build and killed VVL
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