Oil with ZDDP for Elise? - Page 4 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #61 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-16-2017, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
Do you have a link of where he discounts it? Could you share it? TIA
I think you misread what I said:

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... it is legendary for being discussed at great length and discounted on many different forums - including Bob’s.
I didn't say he - Bob - discounted it, just that it had been discussed and discounted in at least one thread on Bob's site (this one is only 21 pages long). There are more. Google Rat 540 and you'll find him on Chevelle, Corvette and BMW forums too.

Rat 540 tests film strength of oil under the conditions imposed by his test rig. Engine manufacturers and oil engineers haven't adopted his methods and continue to test motor oils in engines that are running (at great expense). I'll leave it to the reader to wonder why except to suggest that film strength in Rat 540's test rig is not the definitive measure of motor oil.

Some people believe that once you meet the manufacturer's requirements for motor oil viscosity, it doesn't really matter which brand you use. Like Blackstone Labs.

Glen

p.s. - nice link to the SAE 2ZZ document.
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Last edited by Glen; 12-16-2017 at 08:23 PM.
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post #62 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-16-2017, 08:42 PM
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...
A title deserves capitalization (exp. Grand Poobah), not that it has been deserved.
...
Authors should review their work for spelling and grammatical errors. But please tell me you’re not going to do this for others, esp. for abbreviations.

It . . . is . . . so . . . irritating.

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post #63 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Glen View Post
I think you misread what I said:



I didn't say he - Bob - discounted it, just that it had been discussed and discounted in at least one thread on Bob's site (this one is only 21 pages long). There are more. Google Rat 540 and you'll find him on Chevelle, Corvette and BMW forums too.

Rat 540 tests film strength of oil under the conditions imposed by his test rig. Engine manufacturers and oil engineers haven't adopted his methods and continue to test motor oils in engines that are running (at great expense). I'll leave it to the reader to wonder why except to suggest that film strength in Rat 540's test rig is not the definitive measure of motor oil.

Some people believe that once you meet the manufacturer's requirements for motor oil viscosity, it doesn't really matter which brand you use. Like Blackstone Labs.

Glen

p.s. - nice link to the SAE 2ZZ document.
Best post of the thread. I really like that Blackstone article. Real, directly relevant data from a very large sample population. It explains how everyone arguing that their oil is the best is right.
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post #64 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 09:57 AM
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@oldmansan Yeah I thought I had it beyond dripping with sarcasm. I actually did consider capitlizing Grand Poobah but like you said, wasn't sure he deserved it. I had a hard time initially appreciating the work that undoubtedly went into his rankings because it is buried after tons of egotistic opinions and attitude. Any time someone says that they can never possibly be anything but right, and anyone who criticizes them has always been wrong, it makes everything they say suspicious.

He obviously has some sort of hard on against zinc. Yes there can be too much of a good thing, and ZDDP levels are not the sole factor by which to judge an oil. To say that it does nothing, doesn't matter, etc, well I think that is is full of Poobah (that was for you, San). It's not as if all the oil companies had barrels of zinc and phosphorus just taking up space and got together to make a sneaky agreement they would all start adding it into their oils to clear out storage space. There is a better reason than that. He has proof that once up to temperature, some high ZDDP oils don't perform as well as certain other oils in his lab. That does not prove that ZDDP does nothing at all. To make conclusions about the validity of ZDDP period, one would need to test for that specifically. For instance, take one of his highly ranked oils, and somehow have virtually the same oil with no ZDDP, and test at cold start temperatures as well. Then let's see what conclusions we can make about ZDDP being obsolete, cumulative, or no factor at all.

Jackson touches on the topic of cold starts, and agrees that much of engine wear occurs at cold start up. However it seems all of his testing is at or above normal operating temperatures. I agree, operating temp testing is important, that's where a motor will spend most of its time, but since he says most wear happens when the motor is cold, why doesn't he test the oil when it's similarly cold? He says that his testing "automatically" addresses boundary lubrication. How does his testing "automatically" address boundary lubrication for a motor that has been sitting for a week? The ZDDP tribofilm effect can happen at temperatures under 80 F when metal touches metal. So I don't understand how Jackson can just write off the protection that a ZDDP tribofilm can provide before oil temps rise to normal levels by claiming that the only thing that matters is psi measurements at 230 F in his lab, while he simultaneously claims he has always been right about cold starts being by far the moments of maximum wear.

Oops, I guess I am now a "brainwashed zinc believer" and a "critic of his blog" who "cannot be trusted" because I'm "not an engineer" <there's the sarcasm, imagine my fingers doing air quotes as you read that>. You don't need an engineering background to see logical fallacies. A philosophy 101 class can help with that.


Last edited by Parko; 12-17-2017 at 08:21 PM. Reason: grammars and spellz
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post #65 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 11:08 AM
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Best post of the thread. I really like that Blackstone article. Real, directly relevant data from a very large sample population. It explains how everyone arguing that their oil is the best is right.
I very much agree. Great find, Glen.

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