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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Question Starting issue

I have an daily driven 05 stock Elise with a stage two ex with a peculiar start up issue, the engine and starter wont crank. Alarm module and fuse was removed 16 months ago, keyfob wouldn't unlock https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25...-light-447978/. A few months later dashboard/tachometer works intermittently, fuel gauge reads wrong.
After placing the key in the ignition and turning it to the second indent, dashboard, stereo light up, hear fuel pump prime. Then pressed/hold start button once no click from engine bay and nothing. Weird thing is this happened once a few weeks ago then I left sit overnight and came back the next morning to have it work fine for the next week so didn't think it was a problem. Then it stopped working again. Jumped it to drive it to the mechanic. But before that tried the inertia switch no click, moved it back a little in case of misalignment nothing.

-Found immobilizer fuse missing, replaced and now starting dash issues went away. However now it doesn't need a key to run. Since it didn't need the key, now it didn't turn off unless the fuse for the immobilizer was pulled.
-Pulled starter button, checked the internal spring thing which seemed good contact with the bar. However I did notice it wasn't lit up when driving at night a while ago if it ever did?
- Checked fuses for continuity
- Cleaned any poor contacts on fuses
- Checked all visible grounds for continuity and corrosion
- Left battery disconnected for a while
- Attempted different combinations of starting with and without immobilizer switch fuse

Then for what ever reason it just started working absolutely perfectly dashboard included for the next three days and then it wouldn't start up again.

-Disconnected battery, left for 3 days reconnected and same issue. Got some weird readings from it and it was near the end of its life so replaced with another. Saw a scosche positive terminal wire here too? Still back to square one.

Something up with the ignition switch or immobilizer circuit, ecu programming? Maybe need a immobilizer bypass I keep reading about? Anyone have similar experience before I try to get it on a 5 hour trip to the closest dealer?
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 05:53 PM
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sticky relays? ignition switch continuity issues? the ecu cannot stop the starter from cranking- it can only withhold spark or fuel.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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By sticky relays, do you mean the mfru?
Well decided to recheck the fuses again, then tried starting it up after leaving it disconnected since I last posted this and it started up perfectly.
However a something else is happening, the alarm light on the dash is blinking very fast intermittently
and goes away when I hit around 40mph+. Instrument cluster worked fine for 20min then after starting up again it went its normal nonworking self. Also the battery light stayed when in the second ignition slot but disappeared after starting the engine, didn't happen continuously 2 in 6 startups cycles, anything to worry about?
I'll see how long this lasts me now, what on earth is causing all this. Sputtering alarm light pointing to the immobilizer?
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 10:59 PM
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This is a weird one! Just my two cents. I am by no means a Lotus electrical guru. But this has sticky relay written on it. Don't forget the relay unit on the fire wall. It causes all kinds of weird stuff.

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 05:44 AM
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It's a strange problem indeed. I just want to throw something out there: how or where is the car stored? Is it possible rodents took up residence under the dash at some point? It seems these Lotus dashes make great winter homes for natures little creatures.

2005 Ardent Red Elise, Gut Sport wing & splitter, custom diffuser, Sector111: DSBrace, gPan3, subStuffy2, Larini Sport muffler, decat pipe, Schroth Racing 5 pts, wheel studs, Team Dynamics 1.2 with Hoosier A6s, Koldflash 200 ECU flash, BOE rear clam hinge, BC Racing single adjustables, Hawk pads, SS Brake Lines, HID lights, custom tail and high mount brake light...and much more...
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-27-2019, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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It's a strange problem indeed. I just want to throw something out there: how or where is the car stored? Is it possible rodents took up residence under the dash at some point? It seems these Lotus dashes make great winter homes for natures little creatures.
Its stored in the garage and was driven daily till it stopped working. Going to open up the dash to check the connections.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Well another 6 days and it stopped working, there's almost a pattern here. Stops, works for about 6 days then dies. Maybe it has to due with the heat and relay stop working till it cools down? Taking it to a local to have the relays looked at.

Edit
Spoke too soon, its up again. Did the following, -remove r4 and r2 -disconnected battery. left for 6 minutes, pressed on the brakesto bleed the last energy out of ecu? -reattached battery, pit fuses in. -tried starting after putting the key in ignition. -Thought it didn't work, left the key in stage 2 of the ignition where the fuel pump primes and then waited 3min, pressed the start button and it started.... I really got nothing. Red light flicker still exists.
Something else I noticed, activating the headlights causes the led square in the instruments thing to dim. Going to open up the instruments cluster now to check on it.

Does anyone know where to get a more detailed wiring diagram then the one posted on here that was colorcoded?

Last edited by waddy; 07-01-2019 at 12:06 PM.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 04:46 PM
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Electrical issues and / or fear of them keep me up some nights. Even recently, with another vehicle.

Hope you chase it down man!

L O T U S
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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Waiting for the mfru to come in. Another update the car died after two cycles and also would not start using jumpers and a check engine and oil and battery light were on before pressing start. Tried doing the same thing as I did last time but didn't wait 30 minutes and it didn't start.Was able to get it push started. Does this narrow it down to the immobilizer or maybe starter?
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
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Was able to get it push started. Does this narrow it down to the immobilizer or maybe starter?
i think so. that it could be push started means that the ignition/power/trinary switch, spark control, fuel delivery and ecu controls all work. I'm not too familiar with the immobilizer, but a look at the wiring diagram should tell you if the car can run while supposedly immobilized. maybe the starter is the last remaining suspect?

that being said, i wouldn't jump to replacing it before putting a multimeter on its poles while trying to crank in order to confirm wiring continuity.

Last edited by Obeisance; 07-04-2019 at 12:31 PM.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obeisance View Post
i think so. that it could be push started means that the ignition/power/trinary switch, spark control, fuel delivery and ecu controls all work. I'm not too familiar with the immobilizer, but a look at the wiring diagram should tell you if the car can run while supposedly immobilized. maybe the starter is the last remaining suspect?

that being said, i wouldn't jump to replacing it before putting a multimeter on its poles while trying to crank in order to confirm wiring continuity.
I think you're right, the immobilizer appears to only kill the starter circuit. I've attached a copy of the colorized version of the 2005 Elise wiring diagram I made in case you don't have it already. Sheet 4 shows the immobilizer circuit, it sits between the starter switch and the starter solenoid (see on the right side of sheet 4 where the wires 194 and 188 go to sheet 1). It also ties into the multi-function relay unit at the fuel pump relay (see sheet 2) but I think this is only sensing, not interrupting. I hope this helps, enjoy the color wiring diagram.
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File Type: pdf Elise Wiring Diagram - North American 05MY Colorized-R4.pdf (2.72 MB, 21 views)

2005 Ardent Red Elise, Gut Sport wing & splitter, custom diffuser, Sector111: DSBrace, gPan3, subStuffy2, Larini Sport muffler, decat pipe, Schroth Racing 5 pts, wheel studs, Team Dynamics 1.2 with Hoosier A6s, Koldflash 200 ECU flash, BOE rear clam hinge, BC Racing single adjustables, Hawk pads, SS Brake Lines, HID lights, custom tail and high mount brake light...and much more...
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
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Mfru replaced, by Christ that was stuck in there real bad. Still doesn't start up. Is the consensus on the immobilizer or starter?
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 01:39 PM
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Unless you have a rear clam hinge it might be a coin toss as to which one would be easiest to troubleshoot. Unless you have a rear clam hinge you'll probably have to jack the car and pull the engine access panel to check to see if the starter is getting a signal from the ignition switch. To access the immobilizer you'll have to pull the seats and rear speaker panel to gain access to the immobilizer. Neither is particularly hard, just a little time-consuming. Let me know how it goes, I've got my interior gutted and the front and rear clams are off so I have good visibility if it might help.

2005 Ardent Red Elise, Gut Sport wing & splitter, custom diffuser, Sector111: DSBrace, gPan3, subStuffy2, Larini Sport muffler, decat pipe, Schroth Racing 5 pts, wheel studs, Team Dynamics 1.2 with Hoosier A6s, Koldflash 200 ECU flash, BOE rear clam hinge, BC Racing single adjustables, Hawk pads, SS Brake Lines, HID lights, custom tail and high mount brake light...and much more...
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Unless you have a rear clam hinge it might be a coin toss as to which one would be easiest to troubleshoot. Unless you have a rear clam hinge you'll probably have to jack the car and pull the engine access panel to check to see if the starter is getting a signal from the ignition switch. To access the immobilizer you'll have to pull the seats and rear speaker panel to gain access to the immobilizer. Neither is particularly hard, just a little time-consuming. Let me know how it goes, I've got my interior gutted and the front and rear clams are off so I have good visibility if it might help.
Going over the basics again before this, what voltage should I be getting at the ignition switch?
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 12:59 PM
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Going over the basics again before this, what voltage should I be getting at the ignition switch?
I'll attach some selected pages from the service manual that references some things to check. On the mult-function relay unit in the engine bay (just inboard and below the ECU), with the key in the run position, you should have 0 volts DC on terminals 4 & 6. When the key is in the run position and the start button is pushed you should have battery voltage (12-14 volts DC) at those same terminals 4 & 6.

If you don't have battery voltage at terminal 6 when the key is in the run position and the button is pushed, there is something wrong with either the immobilizer, starter switch or wiring.

If you don't have battery voltage at terminal 4 but you do have it at terminal 6 when the key is in the run position and the button is pushed, then you have a problem with the multi-function relay unit.

If you have battery voltage at both terminals 4 and 6 when the button is pushed, then you need to check the connection at the starter. At the starter, there will be a couple of wires, a large battery cable that should have power all the time; there will also be a smaller 2mm black wire, when the key is in the run position and the starter button is pushed, there should be battery voltage at the 2mm black wire.

It shouldn't be too hard to reach the multi-function relay unit from below the car if the engine access panel is removed, if you have a clam hinge you should be able to reach it from the top but it's pretty tight. The starter isn't very accessible, hence my suggestion to probe the relay unit first.

Good luck, let us know what you find.
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File Type: pdf Start system troubleshooting.pdf (1.47 MB, 22 views)

2005 Ardent Red Elise, Gut Sport wing & splitter, custom diffuser, Sector111: DSBrace, gPan3, subStuffy2, Larini Sport muffler, decat pipe, Schroth Racing 5 pts, wheel studs, Team Dynamics 1.2 with Hoosier A6s, Koldflash 200 ECU flash, BOE rear clam hinge, BC Racing single adjustables, Hawk pads, SS Brake Lines, HID lights, custom tail and high mount brake light...and much more...
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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I'll attach some selected pages from the service manual that references some things to check. On the mult-function relay unit in the engine bay (just inboard and below the ECU), with the key in the run position, you should have 0 volts DC on terminals 4 & 6. When the key is in the run position and the start button is pushed you should have battery voltage (12-14 volts DC) at those same terminals 4 & 6.

If you don't have battery voltage at terminal 6 when the key is in the run position and the button is pushed, there is something wrong with either the immobilizer, starter switch or wiring.

If you don't have battery voltage at terminal 4 but you do have it at terminal 6 when the key is in the run position and the button is pushed, then you have a problem with the multi-function relay unit.

If you have battery voltage at both terminals 4 and 6 when the button is pushed, then you need to check the connection at the starter. At the starter, there will be a couple of wires, a large battery cable that should have power all the time; there will also be a smaller 2mm black wire, when the key is in the run position and the starter button is pushed, there should be battery voltage at the 2mm black wire.

It shouldn't be too hard to reach the multi-function relay unit from below the car if the engine access panel is removed, if you have a clam hinge you should be able to reach it from the top but it's pretty tight. The starter isn't very accessible, hence my suggestion to probe the relay unit first.

Good luck, let us know what you find.

Oh boy, with RMC2 unplugged, trying to start the car, We have 3.7V on 4 and 0V on 6 while attempting to crank. We do not have battery voltage at either 4 or 6 when the vehicle is acting up. 4 reacts directly to the pressing of the start button, but we are losing voltage somewhere in line? We have 0V on the starter signal wire when acting up, with 12.4V battery voltage present. Are we not getting full voltage since we have rmc2 unplugged which powers up the ECU?
Also was the 4 on the rmc2 was the wire to the ecu or did you mean 5 on rmc1?

Last edited by waddy; 07-16-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 02:45 PM
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Can you try to probe the wires on the multi-function relay unit while they are still plugged in? That way the circuit isn't interrupted during the troubleshooting. Terminal 6 on the MFRU should be the crank signal from the start button (it passes through the immobilizer on its way to the MFRU). If you don't have voltage coming to that terminal, my next check would be the immobilizer, here is a thread about how to disable it if that is your wish.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f32...-alarm-107492/

2005 Ardent Red Elise, Gut Sport wing & splitter, custom diffuser, Sector111: DSBrace, gPan3, subStuffy2, Larini Sport muffler, decat pipe, Schroth Racing 5 pts, wheel studs, Team Dynamics 1.2 with Hoosier A6s, Koldflash 200 ECU flash, BOE rear clam hinge, BC Racing single adjustables, Hawk pads, SS Brake Lines, HID lights, custom tail and high mount brake light...and much more...
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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Can you try to probe the wires on the multi-function relay unit while they are still plugged in? That way the circuit isn't interrupted during the troubleshooting. Terminal 6 on the MFRU should be the crank signal from the start button (it passes through the immobilizer on its way to the MFRU). If you don't have voltage coming to that terminal, my next check would be the immobilizer, here is a thread about how to disable it if that is your wish.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f32...-alarm-107492/
Sure. Does the starter voltages check out and it can be crossed off?
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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Uh right now we are getting 0 voltage on the 4,6 terminals while key in and pressing button? Is it something with the start switch? Both the immobilizer and starter decided to die, but we have voltage at starter so just immobilzer? Or prehaps its the starter button? Does anyone know what voltage I should be getting with the button?
Also when we had it unplugged we could tell when the button was being pressed but it was loosing voltage ie the 4-3.7v, but probing the wires now with it in we aren't getting anything.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 11:00 AM
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My guess is that it is the immobilizer. You can check power at the starter button, with the key turned on there should be battery voltage at the green wire (fuse F13). If you have battery voltage at the start button, then it almost has to be the immobilizer; which means it's time to pull the seats. Things at the starter seem OK for now considering that things upstream of it aren't reading correctly.

2005 Ardent Red Elise, Gut Sport wing & splitter, custom diffuser, Sector111: DSBrace, gPan3, subStuffy2, Larini Sport muffler, decat pipe, Schroth Racing 5 pts, wheel studs, Team Dynamics 1.2 with Hoosier A6s, Koldflash 200 ECU flash, BOE rear clam hinge, BC Racing single adjustables, Hawk pads, SS Brake Lines, HID lights, custom tail and high mount brake light...and much more...
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