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Jamari 05-13-2019 07:20 AM

Superchargers
 
Hello!

I'm sure this question has been asked a few times, but here it goes:

I'm a new owner of a 2009 Lotus Elise. I was looking at SC kits, but there's a bit of confusion as to who is legal where, and I can't find good data on whether a kit is legal in my state (NV) or not. I'm not interested in bringing up the car to ridiculous HP, I think the ~220 from the OEM kit is more than enough. I think the Katana produces somewhere around this? Is the OEM kit worth it just to be CARB approved? Any others I should be looking at?

Thank you for your time.

TechnoHippie 05-13-2019 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamari (Post 5946952)
Hello!

I'm sure this question has been asked a few times, but here it goes:

I'm a new owner of a 2009 Lotus Elise. I was looking at SC kits, but there's a bit of confusion as to who is legal where, and I can't find good data on whether a kit is legal in my state (NV) or not. I'm not interested in bringing up the car to ridiculous HP, I think the ~220 from the OEM kit is more than enough. I think the Katana produces somewhere around this? Is the OEM kit worth it just to be CARB approved? Any others I should be looking at?

Thank you for your time.

If you get the OEM kit it will still pass CARB - as far as I know it's the only one that will - and with a factory tune you will be at 217hp. The Katana and BOE kits will produce more HP -- but frankly if you're good with 217hp I would just go the OEM route - for one thing it will be quite a bit cheaper, and of course CARB approved. Plus when it comes time to sell the car to the next owner it can make it easier to sell.

Turbopun 05-14-2019 08:42 AM

Just FYI, the OEM SC is a non-intercooled MP45 and it's, apparently, horribly inefficient.

So yes, OEM gets you CARB, but unless you know you need it in NV, your $ would undoubtedly be better spent on a different kit.

Mobius97 05-14-2019 09:41 AM

The OEM kit.....don't bother unless you absolutely need CARB approval. Ditto to what Turbophun stated on the MP45 SC. The OEM kit, when I inquired from my local Lotus dealership was around $6-7k and didn't factor in the installation costs. Keep in mind my prices are dated as I checked into this back when the Elise SC was first released and they were offering it as a factory upgrade to the non-SC'ed cars. Wasted money in my opinion when their are WAY better options out there.

I run a Katana 2 ([email protected] est. 245bhp), even tho it is a great reliable kit and provides lots of fun....these days I would go with BOE. When I snagged mine from the now defunct Sector 111 (Shinoo's new company sales it https://www.inokinetic.com/lotus/kat...ategory=Engine ), it was only $4500 back in the day. It is now $6k for the same kit. I would go with the newer TVS SC's that BOE provides. They make more power and is upgradable for the same price as the Katana.

Jamari 05-14-2019 10:17 AM

I contacted the Katana manufacturers. It's only compatible with 2008 and earlier cars (mine is 2009).

I also e-mailed BOE but I don't know exactly how to determine if it will meet emissions where I live.

The OEM SC actually would run close to 10k when it's all said and done nowadays.

Like I said, I'm not looking for crazy power, just a bit more pep. =)

Turbopun 05-14-2019 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamari (Post 5947332)
I also e-mailed BOE but I don't know exactly how to determine if it will meet emissions where I live.

I would be very surprised if they couldn't make it meet requirements. And it does not look like Nevada requires anything remotely like what California does. The emissions test appears to be a sniffer, plus OBD2 check, and that's it. Mind you, I only spent 5 minutes googling this, so YMMV, IANAL, etc, etc.

CARB requirements are one of the things that cost the state of California a lot money to manage (and is slowly costing them business). I don't see any other states in a hurry to copy that effort. Can you imagine? What would all the strippers drive if they couldn't drive their old polluting junkers? :cool:

Mobius97 05-14-2019 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamari (Post 5947332)
I contacted the Katana manufacturers. It's only compatible with 2008 and earlier cars (mine is 2009).

I also e-mailed BOE but I don't know exactly how to determine if it will meet emissions where I live.

The OEM SC actually would run close to 10k when it's all said and done nowadays.

Like I said, I'm not looking for crazy power, just a bit more pep. =)


FYI....BOE's kits are not CARB approved either but that doesn't mean they couldn't pass emissions...again agreeing with Turbophun here. Perhaps someone who has already done this in your state can chime in. Glad I live in an area that doesn't do emission testing! What a PITA!

SS Lotus Elise 05-14-2019 01:04 PM

The Atlanta metro area requires annual emissions testing. This was the first year being tested with the BOE Rev 300 supercharger. OBD2 test and viewing the cat (I had to show him where it was) was all that it took to pass.

LionZoo 05-14-2019 02:23 PM

As someone that owns an Elise with a stock supercharger, I have to say it's not worth the effort. I'd just get a BOE Torque 200 tune and call it a day. I was at Streets of Willow with another owner with a NA 200 tune over the weekend and our straight line speeds were pretty much identical and he doesn't have the issue with heat soak. Hell, I've actually considered taking off the stock SC and going NA.

Butters 05-14-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LionZoo (Post 5947424)
As someone that owns an Elise with a stock supercharger, I have to say it's not worth the effort. I'd just get a BOE Torque 200 tune and call it a day. I was at Streets of Willow with another owner with a NA 200 tune over the weekend and our straight line speeds were pretty much identical and he doesn't have the issue with heat soak. Hell, I've actually considered taking off the stock SC and going NA.

This. Just do this.

Me! 05-14-2019 06:00 PM

The BOE kits should pass as long as you ask Phil to turn the emissions monitors on. I have the fastworks tune (same tune software that the BOE kits use) and pass OBD2 testing with no issues. As long as your state only requires OBD2 and/or visual check for a cat there shouldn't be an issue.

TechnoHippie 05-14-2019 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LionZoo (Post 5947424)
As someone that owns an Elise with a stock supercharger, I have to say it's not worth the effort. I'd just get a BOE Torque 200 tune and call it a day. I was at Streets of Willow with another owner with a NA 200 tune over the weekend and our straight line speeds were pretty much identical and he doesn't have the issue with heat soak. Hell, I've actually considered taking off the stock SC and going NA.

I've heard people say this before, so you are not alone in that thinking -- but this doesn't make any sense to me. 190hp vs 220hp in a 2000lb car, plus all the added torque - with the same driver in the same car in a n/a vs a supercharged car it's obvious that you would be able to pop out of the corners quicker with the supercharged one - there is no way it can't be faster. With proper ECU tune you can squeeze another 10 to 20 hp on top of that.

oldmansan 05-14-2019 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnoHippie (Post 5947494)
I've heard people say this before, so you are not alone in that thinking -- but this doesn't make any sense to me. 190hp vs 220hp in a 2000lb car, plus all the added torque - with the same driver in the same car in a n/a vs a supercharged car it's obvious that you would be able to pop out of the corners quicker with the supercharged one - there is no way it can't be faster. With proper ECU tune you can squeeze another 10 to 20 hp on top of that.

It isn't obvious and you also have to add the weight and the parasitic draw from the SC. Especially with the MP45, as it's too small and too easily heat-soaked to make any more power, tune or not. LionZoo has the Elise SC and has considered removing the SC. If that's not a non-endorsement of the MP45, I don't know what is. If you haven't read the other posts in this thread, you should.

San

TechnoHippie 05-14-2019 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldmansan (Post 5947512)
It isn't obvious and you also have to add the weight and the parasitic draw from the SC. Especially with the MP45, as it's too small and too easily heat-soaked to make any more power, tune or not. LionZoo has the Elise SC and has considered removing the SC. If that's not a non-endorsement of the MP45, I don't know what is. If you haven't read the other posts in this thread, you should.

San

yeah the MP45 supercharger doesn't move a whole lot of air compared to the others as its smaller. I will soon be finding out (tomorrow as matter of fact) because I've had one put in my n/a 2005. In my case in addition to a one-off custom ECU tune, also have performed lot of head work (porting an polishing) and also on in the intake,bigger injectors, etc....and I had previously upgraded the cooling system (radiator and fans) along with a bunch of other stuff. I assure you that I'm waaay beyond the 220hp - 240hp normally seen with the MP45. For most people just getting a REV300 would be a simpler way to get the power (and probably cheaper in the long run due to the head and intake work) -- but I got a screamin deal on the labor and ECU tune :) Now if you're just going to have the stock MP45 setup - it might be a little bit quicker, the driveability might improve some due to the extra torque - but "worth it"? I guess that depends on the individual and how much money they wanna spend and how fast they wanna go. I have heard so much from both sides of this -- lots of guys have told me that the mp45 supercharger makes all the difference in the world - and others have said it's not worth it.

oldmansan 05-15-2019 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnoHippie (Post 5947520)
yeah the MP45 supercharger doesn't move a whole lot of air compared to the others as its smaller. I will soon be finding out (tomorrow as matter of fact) because I've had one put in my n/a 2005. In my case in addition to a one-off custom ECU tune, also have performed lot of head work (porting an polishing) and also on in the intake,bigger injectors, etc....and I had previously upgraded the cooling system (radiator and fans) along with a bunch of other stuff. I assure you that I'm waaay beyond the 220hp - 240hp normally seen with the MP45. For most people just getting a REV300 would be a simpler way to get the power (and probably cheaper in the long run due to the head and intake work) -- but I got a screamin deal on the labor and ECU tune :) Now if you're just going to have the stock MP45 setup - it might be a little bit quicker, the driveability might improve some due to the extra torque - but "worth it"? I guess that depends on the individual and how much money they wanna spend and how fast they wanna go. I have heard so much from both sides of this -- lots of guys have told me that the mp45 supercharger makes all the difference in the world - and others have said it's not worth it.

You've stated your optimism before, but after a compressor map of the MP45 was posted and Phil commented on head work and the MP45, you disappeared from the dyno thread.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25...ml#post5941322
https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25...ml#post5941398

You likely would have been better off without the MP45.

San

kfennell 05-15-2019 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnoHippie (Post 5947520)
yeah the MP45 supercharger doesn't move a whole lot of air compared to the others as its smaller. I will soon be finding out (tomorrow as matter of fact) because I've had one put in my n/a 2005. In my case in addition to a one-off custom ECU tune, also have performed lot of head work (porting an polishing) and also on in the intake,bigger injectors, etc....and I had previously upgraded the cooling system (radiator and fans) along with a bunch of other stuff. I assure you that I'm waaay beyond the 220hp - 240hp normally seen with the MP45. For most people just getting a REV300 would be a simpler way to get the power (and probably cheaper in the long run due to the head and intake work) -- but I got a screamin deal on the labor and ECU tune :) Now if you're just going to have the stock MP45 setup - it might be a little bit quicker, the driveability might improve some due to the extra torque - but "worth it"? I guess that depends on the individual and how much money they wanna spend and how fast they wanna go. I have heard so much from both sides of this -- lots of guys have told me that the mp45 supercharger makes all the difference in the world - and others have said it's not worth it.

When you figure out how to beat the laws of thermodynamics can I buy shares in your company before it goes public?

TechnoHippie 05-15-2019 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kfennell (Post 5947550)
When you figure out how to beat the laws of thermodynamics can I buy shares in your company before it goes public?

Porting and polishing head and intake creates more HP than the MP45 supercharger does...uggg already had this discussion in different thread.

kfennell 05-15-2019 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnoHippie (Post 5947560)
Porting and polishing head and intake creates more HP than the MP45 supercharger does...uggg already had this discussion in different thread.

Is it going to draw in extra O2 molecules from another dimension? The MP45 cannot move enough air, on its own, not attached to a car. To make that much power. And that ignores all the heat it puts in the air. And the fact that there will still be intake restrictions.

But please post a dyno graph from a publicly available dyno and I will have a head in the mail to your guy that day.

TechnoHippie 05-15-2019 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kfennell (Post 5947568)
Is it going to draw in extra O2 molecules from another dimension? The MP45 cannot move enough air, on its own, not attached to a car. To make that much power. And that ignores all the heat it puts in the air. And the fact that there will still be intake restrictions.

But please post a dyno graph from a publicly available dyno and I will have a head in the mail to your guy that day.

How much hp do you think a reworked head and intake creates with bigger injectors?

LionZoo 05-15-2019 07:23 AM

As a science experiment, I put my Elise SC on DRS' dyno to try to quantify the heat soak. My car has an exhaust and a DMC header that BOE shows to be worth a decent amount of power. How much? I have no real idea. My WAG is 10 hp on my car, but I have no dyno plots to prove it.

Anyway, with engine oil up to temperature, but a cold SC, the car pulled about 185 whp on his dyno on a very cool California day. We then ran the car for two minutes at which time my oil temperature was at 220 degrees. The car then did two pulls which returned around 175 whp, with the second pull about 2 whp lower (noise?). So approximately 10 hp drop from simulating about one lap's worth of heat build up. Typically, my oil temperatures are in the 240-250 degree range on track so I'm sure my car probably makes less than 170 whp after it's been on track for awhile.


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