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post #21 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 10:01 AM
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You should do what makes you comfortable, but I've never seen any legitimate source that states anything about chemical changes to a tire when freezing. In fact, every manufacturer who has a warning on cold tires (Pirelli, Cooper, GM, Tirerack, Consumer Reports, I think I recall Yoko), simply states what I did above. Moving a frozen tire can crack it. But all the manufacturers state that the tire is fine to use once it has warmed back up. You're fine as long as you don't move the car. In fact, I'd pump up the tires during storage to reduce the flat spot and flexing.

Last edited by me73; 07-02-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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post #22 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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You should do what makes you comfortable, but I've never seen any legitimate source that states anything about chemical changes to a tire when freezing. In fact, every manufacturer who has a warning on cold tires (Pirelli, Cooper, GM, Tirerack, Consumer Reports, I think I recall Yoko), simply states what I did above. Moving a frozen tire can crack it. But all the manufacturers state that the tire is fine to use once it has warmed back up. You're fine as long as you don't move the car. In fact, I'd pump up the tires during storage to reduce the flat spot and flexing.
You make a lot of sense. If you think about it, tires travel from factory to retail location and during the winter time, they would see extended time at very cold temperatures in many parts of the world. The only difference is that they are not under pressure. Still, since the material is unchanged by the cold during transit, I feel more comfortable having my tires out in the winter time. As I said before, I will never drive the car during winter time. It will be 100% in storage.
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post #23 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 02:31 PM
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I tried to reply but it says you need to delete some PM's before you can get more.
Noted, and resolved. Thanks!
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post #24 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by me73 View Post
You should do what makes you comfortable, but I've never seen any legitimate source that states anything about chemical changes to a tire when freezing. In fact, every manufacturer who has a warning on cold tires (Pirelli, Cooper, GM, Tirerack, Consumer Reports, I think I recall Yoko), simply states what I did above. Moving a frozen tire can crack it. But all the manufacturers state that the tire is fine to use once it has warmed back up. You're fine as long as you don't move the car. In fact, I'd pump up the tires during storage to reduce the flat spot and flexing.
You should stop repeating this theory: it's wrong as I've told you before.

This time, you try calling a tire engineer and ask him or her why those tires can be stored (even w/o moving) in sub 20s.

Then, pls ask if this advice you trot out isn't dangerous.

OK?

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #25 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by glb View Post
You should stop repeating this theory: it's wrong as I've told you before.

This time, you try calling a tire engineer and ask him or her why those tires can be stored (even w/o moving) in sub 20s.

Then, pls ask if this advice you trot out isn't dangerous.

OK?
And as I've told you before, there is no chemical change to tires at cold temperature. Where's your information? I've yet to see it posted anywhere. I am simply going by the manufacturer's and experts recommendations, there is no theory here. Unless there's proof otherwise, I will continue to report the manufacturer's recommendations as they are written.

For anyone interested, please do your own research. The tire rack page linked here is consistent with manufacturer's sites as well.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...jsp?techid=220

Last edited by me73; 07-02-2019 at 09:35 PM.
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post #26 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 05:46 AM
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Guys, I hate to see people arguing in circles. In my humble opinion, I think you are both kind of right, maybe just not looking at the big picture. Yes, no chemical changes occur to a tire when frozen, but there are tremendous internal pressures on the tire, even if it is not moving, but is holding the weight of the vehicle. Everywhere I've looked one of the first pieces of advice by all manufacturers is to store the tires above freezing temps. If I absolutely could not store my tires in a heated environment (which fortunately I can), at a minimum, I would lessen the stresses on the tire by either removing them from the car or putting the car on jack stands, then lowering the tire pressure during storage. I think you both have the right idea and best intentions, maybe just blend your two philosophies together.

2005 Ardent Red Elise, Gut Sport wing & splitter, custom diffuser, Sector111: DSBrace, gPan3, subStuffy2, Larini Sport muffler, decat pipe, Schroth Racing 5 pts, wheel studs, Team Dynamics 1.2 with Hoosier A6s, Koldflash 200 ECU flash, BOE rear clam hinge, BC Racing single adjustables, Hawk pads, SS Brake Lines, HID lights, custom tail and high mount brake light...and much more...
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post #27 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 10:42 AM
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I'll jump in. I don't believe you're supposed to store the car on jack stands for extended periods, as I've read it's bad for the suspension components to be 'drooped' for long stretches. As for the matter of cold storage, many manufactures—especially those of high-performance summer tires—overtly state not to store them in freezing temperatures. Now, this is most likely for a good reason, but also, these companies have lawyers who's sole job it is to help them avoid liability. I, personally, have left OEM AD07s on my car, in an unheated garage, in Chicago, where it gets quite cold, for three years and have never had an issue. Regardless, you should inspect your tires on a regular basis and replace them if they age out or show any signs of anomaly.
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post #28 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 11:17 AM
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I'm waiting for info from a few mfgrs I contacted.

I found the woman who I spoke to a decade ago (by coincidence).

Another tire rep implied that our difference did not matter.

If the tire cracks, it is no good. From TR link above:

"While compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced."

This leads to more questions. What causes the cracking in cold weather?

Is it only cracks we can see that we should worry about?

Me73's opinion really may not hold:

"The risk to summer tires at cold temperatures is that they become brittle. If flexed when below the glass transition temperature, they will crack and need to be replaced. If the car just sits when it's cold but isn't moved until it warms up, chances are your tires are fine. The tires soften up when warmed up again."

Tires are the only part of the car touching the road, so "chances are" does not work for me.

I hope to have more info in a few days.
----


Terib, store tires in one of your rooms with a nice tablecloth or ~ draped over them. Mine spend the winter in a bedroom/office.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #29 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by glb View Post
I'm waiting for info from a few mfgrs I contacted.

I found the woman who I spoke to a decade ago (by coincidence).

Another tire rep implied that our difference did not matter.

If the tire cracks, it is no good. From TR link above:

"While compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced."

This leads to more questions. What causes the cracking in cold weather?

Is it only cracks we can see that we should worry about?

Me73's opinion really may not hold:

"The risk to summer tires at cold temperatures is that they become brittle. If flexed when below the glass transition temperature, they will crack and need to be replaced. If the car just sits when it's cold but isn't moved until it warms up, chances are your tires are fine. The tires soften up when warmed up again."

Tires are the only part of the car touching the road, so "chances are" does not work for me.

I hope to have more info in a few days.
----


Terib, store tires in one of your rooms with a nice tablecloth or ~ draped over them. Mine spend the winter in a bedroom/office.
I'm not sure how you see what I wrote as anything different from the tire rack site that I also posted, but whatever.

Cracking occurs because, as I said, the cold temperature transitions the tire into it's glass phase in which the molecules no longer want to unravel and stay tied together. Instead they break from each other. I'll say this again, when the temperature returns above glass transition, the tire flexes again, just as it did before.

What causes the cracking? Movement of the tire is what causes it to crack.

Good luck with finding anything other than the manufacturers already state. You will not come back with anything that says a tire has reached a temperature so cold that it's been permanently damaged just because it's gotten cold but I'm sure you'll find some way to make your story of some kind of chemical change to the tire work from whatever you find.

Last edited by me73; 07-04-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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post #30 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Verichai View Post
many manufactures—especially those of high-performance summer tires—overtly state not to store them in freezing temperatures.
Not exactly, they say that they recommend that you not to store them at cold temperatures, but if you do, don't let them flex and inspect them afterwards.
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post #31 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 03:24 PM
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I'm not sure how you see what I wrote as anything different from the tire rack site that I also posted, but whatever.

Cracking occurs because, as I said, the cold temperature transitions the tire into it's glass phase in which the molecules no longer want to unravel and stay tied together. Instead they break from each other. I'll say this again, when the temperature returns above glass transition, the tire flexes again, just as it did before.

What causes the cracking? Movement of the tire is what causes it to crack.

Good luck with finding anything other than the manufacturers already state. You will not come back with anything that says a tire has reached a temperature so cold that it's been permanently damaged just because it's gotten cold but I'm sure you'll find some way to make your story of some kind of chemical change to the tire work from whatever you find.
Why are you so hostile?

This is not my "story". I repeated what the engineer said: polymers unravel.

BTW, I was also told that the engineers use 3.07 (vs pi) when calculating tire circumference, due to deflection.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #32 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 07:30 PM
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>>> I'm a bit surprised to see that I have all of one single tire option for my 2005 Elise

I'm surprised not seeing Dunlops listed. I have touring wheels on a 2006. I have been running Dunlop Direzzia Star Spec's for years - since these tires became available. 205/50r16 and 225/45r17 almost perfectly match tire diameters, and the 205 cause no interference in the front wheel well, and are just in spec on the very narrow front rims. Great tires.
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post #33 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-05-2019, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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Terib, store tires in one of your rooms with a nice tablecloth or ~ draped over them. Mine spend the winter in a bedroom/office.
I need to learn how to jack up my Elise so that I can pull the tires and take them indoors. I'm not a wrencher so I don't know how to do that just yet.
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post #34 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-05-2019, 11:55 AM
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I need to learn how to jack up my Elise so that I can pull the tires and take them indoors.
A floor jack makes this a 15 minute process.
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post #35 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-05-2019, 04:05 PM
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I have been running the following tires on my Elise for the past several years: Bridgestone Potenza RE-11, Front: 205/45R16, Rear: 235/40R17. They are very sticky and I have never had an issue with scrubbing against the wheel wells. I am very happy with them.
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post #36 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 03:56 PM
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OK, boys and girls

I got some answers that don’t necessarily agree with each other.


Yokohama:

High performance compounds have a glass transition temperature higher than typical tires. When the temperature is below the glass transition temp cracking can occur due to flexing or due to stresses inherent in the tread. Once the cracking occurs the tire should not be used. To ensure cracking does not occur the tires should not be stored below the temperature stated on the label.



Michelin:

The compounds used in summer tires are optimized to operate most efficiently at warmer temperatures. As the temperature of the compound drops, the grip level, both wet and dry, also begins to drop. Each tire model is different, but in general we issue a suggestion to avoid using summer tires when the temperature drops consistently below 40 F. Below 40F the grip level begins to drop off rapidly, and it can feel like driving on ice even if the pavement is dry.

I am aware of some Corvette owners who spun out as they pulled out of the driveway when taking the car out on a cold day.

It is possible to warm the tires up by driving very gently and cautiously on cold days; this will not do any damage to the tires unless is it extremely cold – well below 20F. When the compound reaches the brittle point (again this is dependent on the tire model), simply flexing the tire by moving the car (or tire if in storage) can cause the compound to crack. The cracks will be permanent and we recommend to replace tires that have cold weather cracking. In general track tires have a higher temperature brittle point than street tires.

Properly storing a tire in cold conditions is actually a benefit to the tire as it slows down the natural oxidation process. The golden rule is not to move the tire in these condition and let the tires warm up slowly. Flexing the tread zone when brittle is what causes the cracking.
---

It appears that me73 and I are both a bit correct, but he may have done better.

I still haven’t an idea why me73 is so hostile. I assume he lost an argument or two with me; is a Trump voter; is jealous because I may buy a new Aston Martin. (joking, sort of)

So, buddy, was it you who had the fixation on those dumb hockey pucks?

If not, please explain.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #37 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by glb View Post
OK, boys and girls

I got some answers that don’t necessarily agree with each other.


Yokohama:

High performance compounds have a glass transition temperature higher than typical tires. When the temperature is below the glass transition temp cracking can occur due to flexing or due to stresses inherent in the tread. Once the cracking occurs the tire should not be used. To ensure cracking does not occur the tires should not be stored below the temperature stated on the label.



Michelin:

The compounds used in summer tires are optimized to operate most efficiently at warmer temperatures. As the temperature of the compound drops, the grip level, both wet and dry, also begins to drop. Each tire model is different, but in general we issue a suggestion to avoid using summer tires when the temperature drops consistently below 40 F. Below 40F the grip level begins to drop off rapidly, and it can feel like driving on ice even if the pavement is dry.

I am aware of some Corvette owners who spun out as they pulled out of the driveway when taking the car out on a cold day.

It is possible to warm the tires up by driving very gently and cautiously on cold days; this will not do any damage to the tires unless is it extremely cold – well below 20F. When the compound reaches the brittle point (again this is dependent on the tire model), simply flexing the tire by moving the car (or tire if in storage) can cause the compound to crack. The cracks will be permanent and we recommend to replace tires that have cold weather cracking. In general track tires have a higher temperature brittle point than street tires.

Properly storing a tire in cold conditions is actually a benefit to the tire as it slows down the natural oxidation process. The golden rule is not to move the tire in these condition and let the tires warm up slowly. Flexing the tread zone when brittle is what causes the cracking.
---

It appears that me73 and I are both a bit correct, but he may have done better.

I still haven’t an idea why me73 is so hostile. I assume he lost an argument or two with me; is a Trump voter; is jealous because I may buy a new Aston Martin. (joking, sort of)

So, buddy, was it you who had the fixation on those dumb hockey pucks?

If not, please explain.
It's cute to try to take petty pot shots. I'm not interested in that.

Now hopefully we have the definitive answer, which is exactly the answer that I originally gave and I don't have to argue with you on it when it comes up next time.
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post #38 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 07:28 AM
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It's cute to try to take petty pot shots. I'm not interested in that.

Now hopefully we have the definitive answer, which is exactly the answer that I originally gave and I don't have to argue with you on it when it comes up next time.


Well, buddy, you have a history of "pot shots".

Right here is an example of another.

These sentences don't work together.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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post #39 of 39 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 10:04 AM
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Re-read the tire mfgrs advice, found:

"When the temperature is below the glass transition temp cracking can occur due to flexing or due to stresses inherent in the tread"

"To ensure cracking does not occur the tires should not be stored below the temperature stated on the label."



Remember the heightened risk of cracking (ruining) the tire should it get flexed in cold garage if you knock into it.

Also, since we have no way to gauge "stresses inherent in the tread", I believe now that I may have been right the first time. But, not sure.

I will continue to store them in the house.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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