better for car - higher revs or more gear changes - elise s2 - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
 16Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 04:23 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by fzust View Post
Practically speaking: Letting the car warm up before you get into it is always smart.
"It turns out, while you might have thought that letting your car slowly warm up was reducing wear and tear, all that idling time leads to raw gasoline seeping into the oil, breaking down the oil's lubrication properties and increasing the wear."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...m-up-your-car/
CMP likes this.
dr-exmedic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 04:52 AM
Registered User
 
Kevin Michael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Boston (metrowest)
Posts: 125
Plus 1 on not downshifting to slow the car down. I use the brakes for that. You can replace the pads and rotors without having to even move the calipers (which is good as I don't see how I could pull the rear calipers without damaging the boots on one of the fixing bolts). Fred (Fzust) can replace a clutch in under an hour I understand. I'll bet I could do it under a (long) weekend.

And not being an engineer (as many here seem to be), take this with a grain of salt. Cruising about on a nice day (or evening) just to enjoy the breeze, I usually shift about 3,500. When I am feeling sportier, I shift around 5,500. And when I am in the mood, I am at redline (assuming my oil temp is up, and I do have a gauge). So my mood drives the bus. I am usually smiling irrespective of the shift RPMs.
CMP likes this.

1974 Europa Twin Cam (gone but not forgotten)
1971 Europa S2 (owned but two months; flipped to raise funds to fill gap in college tuition)
35 years of restraint (including an Odyssey with 13 cupholders)
2005 Elise (magnetic blue), starshield, chin guards, Penske nonajustable shocks (BWR), Mishimoto sandwich plate, AEM oil temp and pressure gauges, third brake light flasher, Larini Group B silencer, Sector 111 DSBrace
Kevin Michael is offline  
post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 06:38 AM
Less is Better
 
me73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Issaquah, WA
Posts: 2,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr-exmedic View Post
"It turns out, while you might have thought that letting your car slowly warm up was reducing wear and tear, all that idling time leads to raw gasoline seeping into the oil, breaking down the oil's lubrication properties and increasing the wear."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...m-up-your-car/
I don't see anyone suggesting idling the car, which is what this article is about. The suggestion is to avoid high loads and engine speeds while the car warms up.
me73 is online now  
 
post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 08:15 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 413
Garage
You realize this is the drivetrain out of a Toyota Celica, right? They're not known for being all that fragile.

That said, biggest sources of engine wear are cold starts and full throttle operation above the torque peak, particularly with an engine not yet at operating temperature. 'Above the torque peak' is a bit fuzzy on a 2ZZ-GE because it has two, depending on which cam you're on. That said, on the low cam it's probably around 4500 and on the high cam probably around 7500 RPM. There does appear to be a relationship between cold engine high cam use and wiping cams, so staying below 4500 is the safe choice until everything is really warm.

The 'no full throttle when cold' rule matters because the ECU goes into open loop and puts more fuel in the engine than will burn efficiently to make maximum power. That extra fuel makes carbon deposits, dilutes oil, etc. As we have a HEGO, the car should go into closed loop quite quickly, which should minimize cylinder bore washdown even when idling.

Clutch wear is caused by a clutch that is neither fully engaged nor fully disengaged (slipping). That's the only time it wears. If you rev match your shifts, it barely wears at all. I've heard of clutch springs having fatigue failures, but never seen one, so I think we can ignore that given that it's a Toyota.

Transmission wear really comes down to just three things: synchronizers, gears, and bearings. Synchros wear with every RPM of difference they have to brake. Again, rev matching is your (synchros') friend. It's true that fewer shifts equals less synchro wear, but bogging a short stroke 1.8L four is bad, and so is spinning it at high RPM at no reason. Gear wear is inversely proportional to lubricant cleanliness and directly proportional to torque transferred. Spending a lot of time at full throttle and torque peak is a reliable way to make the gear teeth wear more, of course this is a challenge on a 1 ton car with 200 HP. That leaves bearings, which generally fatigue fail after a long life, so not generally a concern.

So what's best? Keep the engine above 2000 RPM when moving. Keep it below 4500 when cold. Stay out of full throttle when cold. Shift as necessary to maintain that state. Learn to rev match - it's ridiculously easy with the light flywheel and good throttle response this car has.
steelypip is online now  
post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 08:16 AM
Elise Guru
 
fzust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 3,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Michael View Post
Plus 1 on not downshifting to slow the car down. I use the brakes for that. You can replace the pads and rotors without having to even move the calipers (which is good as I don't see how I could pull the rear calipers without damaging the boots on one of the fixing bolts). Fred (Fzust) can replace a clutch in under an hour I understand. I'll bet I could do it under a (long) weekend.

And not being an engineer (as many here seem to be), take this with a grain of salt. Cruising about on a nice day (or evening) just to enjoy the breeze, I usually shift about 3,500. When I am feeling sportier, I shift around 5,500. And when I am in the mood, I am at redline (assuming my oil temp is up, and I do have a gauge). So my mood drives the bus. I am usually smiling irrespective of the shift RPMs.
Good way to go, Kevin Michael. I think the easy way to think about it is to enjoy the car. You want to slow down with the clutch, its OK, but will reduce clutch life. If the car is babied, maybe it drops from 200k miles to 150k miles. In other words, who cares? However, I find the fun of working on my heel-toe as I down shift and rev match to be more rewarding AND easier on the car. Biggest single thing is DON'T ABUSE the car. Riding the rev limiter all the time = Abuse. Blipping a few times at the weekend autox = Use. Revving high while cold = Abuse. Using the whole rev- range while Canyon Carving(responsibly) = Use. At the end of the day ENJOY THE CAR. Clutches can be replaced and transmissions can be rebuilt. Be respectful of warm up and bad habits and it will bring YEARS of High-Revving fun.


Multiple SCCA Solo National and Pro Solo National Championships


Blackwatch Racing - Better for the Street, Proven on the track

Lotus Performance Parts and Accessories

Winning Suspension
- Larini Exhaust - BWR Close Ratio Gearset
We build the toughest Lotus Transmissions for the Elige. From Stock to SCCA-NASA-World Challenge Winners.

6UL wheels
fzust is offline  
post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 12:22 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by me73 View Post
I don't see anyone suggesting idling the car, which is what this article is about. The suggestion is to avoid high loads and engine speeds while the car warms up.
Funny, I had actually quoted in my post the one and only person who had indeed mentioned idling.

To wit, "Practically speaking: Letting the car warm up before you get into it is always smart." Which would be true for a Lotus with a carb...which isn't an S2 Elise.
dr-exmedic is offline  
post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 01:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Florida
Posts: 222
Skip Barber teaches his Formula Ford clients that 4th straight down to 2nd when appropriate is a smart way to shift. So when in a Lotus, even though it's much heavier than a Formula car, downshifting straight from 4th to 2nd, while also standing on the brakes, will seriously slow the car. More later about what twice then I repaired....but I shift that way on the street when it feels necessary and right frequently. Maybe 3rd to 1st?...I've never tried it.... 5th to 3rd or 2nd?
EYERACE is offline  
post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 02:36 PM
Registered User
 
not-a-number's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Huntington Beach
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by EYERACE View Post
Skip Barber teaches his Formula Ford clients that 4th straight down to 2nd when appropriate is a smart way to shift. So when in a Lotus, even though it's much heavier than a Formula car, downshifting straight from 4th to 2nd, while also standing on the brakes, will seriously slow the car. More later about what twice then I repaired....but I shift that way on the street when it feels necessary and right frequently. Maybe 3rd to 1st?...I've never tried it.... 5th to 3rd or 2nd?
I do 4th to 2nd and 6th to 4th on the street all the time. Mainly because Im just cruising and the revs are low so dropping down 1 gear isnt enough. You gotta double de clutch properly though.

This is a good cruising combo.

1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th
not-a-number is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > General Discussion (Lotus related)

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome