Engine said yes, Transmision said no - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2014, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Engine said yes, Transmision said no

Just as I was feeling smug about others having to put their toys away for the season I go and break mine! My season is over too! heh

Yep, I was showboating and evidently dropped the clutch poorly timed or whatever. I heard a noise and then I can't engage in any gear.

A few things are certain:

1)I now have my winter projects...

2) Time to install the clam hinge and make associated adjustments to allow for easy future access.

3) I will do my research and want to build it ala "six million dollar man" style and make it stronger, faster, better than before...


Anyone want to take a initial guess at what I busted ? Clutch makes no strange noises, same pressure, Gears go in gates, just no gears will access not even reverse. Just dead in neutral it seems ?

I guess the rumors are true... Past a certain point of HP your dealing the transmission a bad hand. I have been careful for over a year except for yesterday. I never released at high-ish RPM in first gear before.

Anyway I am not broken hearted. I am excited about the choices ahead of me on the rebuild. Anyone care to throw some links or places I should be sourcing parts from ?

Naturally I want it stronger, but I don't know the first thing about gearing. I am inclined to gear higher and drop top speed. Well when I find some time I will start educating myself.

L O T U S
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post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2014, 04:52 PM
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Not sure I agree with the "beyond a certain horsepower level the transmission is doomed" theory. As much as you don't care to hear it I'm more inclined to think it is end user induced. Some have issues at stock levels and some are golden at high horsepower levels.

San
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post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2014, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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I mean sure I did it.

So in essence if what your saying is true I should not be able to induce wheelspin ? That is to much for the drivetrain?


Sure the main ingredient was poor clutch work in 1st. I would just think the wheels would spin prior to actually breaking? Unless there is too much power ?


I just wonder what would have happened in this same scenario if I was at stock power levels instead of approx 280-290 at the wheels.

I want to build my transmission for future power. Say 350 or so at the wheels.

L O T U S
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post #4 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2014, 05:14 PM
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I mean sure I did it.

So in essence if what your saying is true I should not be able to induce wheelspin ? That is to much for the drivetrain?


Sure the main ingredient was poor clutch work in 1st. I would just think the wheels would spin prior to actually breaking? Unless there is too much power ?


I just wonder what would have happened in this same scenario if I was at stock power levels instead of approx 280-290 at the wheels.

I want to build my transmission for future power. Say 350 or so at the wheels.
I'm at the same or higher horsepower levels. I think the stock transmission can take 300 to the wheels and probably more, but not if you're launching hard or shifting recklessly. I'll let SMEs chime in here.

San
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post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2014, 05:18 PM
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Sorry to hear about your troubles.

The fact of the matter is that the stock transmission is small and a weak link... Probably the Elise/Exige's worst part. I'm betting your final drive blew. I broke mine and generally, any auto-xer is going to break one eventually... The hard launches are the worst on it.

Going forward, you really don't have much of a choice. The best option for you, I'd guess, it's to fix the broken transmission... or get another one and fix the broken one in your spare time. There is really only one other option for you and that's to install and E153 transmission and a swap kit. For the street, I wouldn't recommend that transmission. The two worst aspects of it are the hard mounts (unless you fab your own) and the looooong gears. It'll do 76 in 2nd... great for auto-x, bad for zipping around on the street and feeling cool.

The third option is to go squential but that's really only meant for real racecars so it's not your best bet.
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post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 05:41 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Glagola1

As I said I have to do a bunch of research. Your the first data point helping.

I am closing on selling my house and tons other stuff so I can't give it any time right now. It's tucked away in my new garage.

Final drive huh ? sounds right. I mean if I have to yank it out I am going to beef up everything.

I know nada about transmissions. I just need to choose what I am going to replace, take it out have it repaired and replace with new parts and then put it back in. I can do everything but actually repair the transmission.

We will see. Maybe I can do that as well ? I replaced my head and all the goodies in it. Would this be that hard technically?


Thanks for chiming in man.

L O T U S
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post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 07:02 AM
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Unfortunately, there is really nothing you can do to "beef up" the stock transmission so that it fixes the final drive weakness. It's just too small. Part of the issue stems from the fact that this transmission was designed for a FWD car making not a ton of power. When you add the MR traction and the power we add to the motor to the equation, things break.

As you'll find, the best bet is to simply buy a replacement.

Working on the transmission isn't too tough. There's a few tools you'll need such as pullers and a press. If I was you and since this isn't a competition vehicle, I'd skip buying the tools and doing it myself. Just get a spare trans and pay to have your other one fixed. I know Fred Zust with BWR fixes these things and I bet somebody local could do it for you too.

I made it for about 1.5 years of heavy duty auto-xing on my stock transmission with r-comp tires and clutch dump launches. It should take a while for a trans to break with regular street use.
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post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 07:33 AM
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Oh, man, I am sorry to hear this but, in reality, I guess the timing couldn't be better.

As we are headed into winter, I would suggest pulling the transmission and taking it apart to see what happened. It will be educational if nothing else. I can't help much on advise as the only transmission I have ever disassembled is the T-10 four speed in my old car.

I do know that if I had mime apart for anything, I would consider installing a LSD and taller 6th gear that some have talked about here.

Good luck with the closing and keep us updated on the repairs and modifications.
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post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 08:21 AM
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if you cannot get it into gear, are you sure you didn't just kill the clutch?

Autocross is brutal on boxes. The shock an AX trans sees has got to be second to none.

On the other hand, there are plenty, and I mean plenty of folks with well north of 300hp on the roadcourse and street on stock or near stock boxes. Darksol has 11.4 second quarter mile passes on drag tires and 400hp on his STOCK transmission. He does shift responsibly though... Link : Darksol's Car

These cars and drivelines and not designed for clutch dropping or speed shifting whether they have 190 or 400hp. That doesn't mean it can't be changed to deal with that, but even at 190hp, if you drive a lotus like a pony car, it's gonna break. It's that simple.

-Phil


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post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you guys...

I will likely be throwing some technical questions out there in the future in the respective forums.

Hmmm. I am disappointed to hear that you can't really beef the unit up... I know it can likely be fixed easy once out. I am going to suspend my disbelief in your statements and assume I can get stronger gears et al... I hope so. It has oem LSD in it now. A taller 6th gear? hmmm higher top end right? I would like to accentuate acceleration. Of course its a hazard for me what with all those extra gear changes with lower gearing... heh

Let me attempt another description. It seems to go in gear, but there is no resistance in the gate, it stays there, but I let the clutch out in any gear including reverse I get nothing. Including noises. The clutch has no change, but "Time tells all stories"tm will hold true.


I guess a mystery it shall remain until I can get some time. I Appreciate the insights. Wish I had time to monkey around and get that clam off again. Well for me I get a lot of enjoyment doing my own work on my vehicle. Of course it makes driving that much more satisfying.( good thing eh? ) I can't make time right now as much as I want to.

I have the ACT XTSS clutch with a Fidenza flywheel combo. I hope I did no evil there!!!

L O T U S

Last edited by Motard; 11-17-2014 at 09:25 AM.
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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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I did not "shift responsibly"

You hurt my feeling Phil! It's true though...

I immediately think of the refrain to "Party Up" by DMX

"That's why you layin on your back, lookin at the roof of the church
Preacher tellin the truth and it hurts"


I am going to need do some square trading on one of your ClamHinge systems soon Mr. Sparkplug whispering Preacherman!!

L O T U S

Last edited by Motard; 11-17-2014 at 09:17 AM.
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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 11:11 AM
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^ you do not need to pull the clam to remove the transmission. I'm sure it is easier to do if you pull it though (or hinge it).

Pat Wildfire

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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 02:10 PM
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Re: Turbophil "These cars and drivelines and not designed for clutch dropping or speed shifting whether they have 190 or 400hp. That doesn't mean it can't be changed to deal with that, but even at 190hp, if you drive a lotus like a pony car, it's gonna break. It's that simple.
Please describe "Speed Shifting". Is this clutchless shifting or what? Some of us might learn something here! (like me! lol!)
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post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for that Pwildfire!!!

I am going to learn a lot going through this. Pulling the clam allows me to give everything the once over from my last session replacing the Head.

I think it is just time to do the clam hinge and basic mods that are associated with it to reduce the time from approx 4 hours to whatever it will be afterwards.

I have decided I am in there often enough at this juncture of ownership to warrant the clamhinge.


I get a little OCD on my car over the winter... My new house has a whole open basement / garage arrangement. A lot more room... might even do a mancave with my car sitting right in it! heh

L O T U S
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post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
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Re:
Please describe "Speed Shifting". Is this clutchless shifting or what? Some of us might learn something here! (like me! lol!)
Same here. I've never heard of speed shifting...


Motard - sorry to hear, man. Hopefully you'll get it worked out when you have the chance.
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post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 03:30 PM
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Speed shifting is shifting as quickly as possible and usually staying on the gas between shifts so the motor revs up between shifts.

San
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post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 03:42 PM
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Motard,
FWIW I've been at 281rwhp for 3.5 years now with no issues. Now that Phil has chimed in I believe I'm correct in diagnosing the "nut" behind the issue is likely the same nut doing the steering.

Phil had told me a while ago that if I ever had an issue with my transmission the guy to rebuild it is here local to me. You might want to ask who it is as I forgot the name.

San
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post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 05:36 PM
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By speed shifting, I simply mean: jamming the gears, shifting hard, shifting like you stole it, etc...

You should shift with your wrist and/or fingers on this car. You don't make up time on the esses by hammering through the gears. Part of the issue is bending the shift forks and the other is shocking the trans with a hard shift. If you engage too aggressively, you can bend the shift forks and then the syncros go, etc... Additionally, when you shift hard, it shocks the driveline, which can crack gears, etc. Putting in overly aggressive clutches only make the problem worse. Save the XTSS clutch for ultra high power (over 400whp) or straight cut gears.
Use the HDSS as it engages softer, but will still hold, and will take some shock out of the shifting process. Always run a sprung hub friction disc.

Follow these guidelines and your trans will have a good shot at lasting a long time even with 350whp.

-Phil


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post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 05:38 PM
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....Phil had told me a while ago that if I ever had an issue with my transmission the guy to rebuild it is here local to me. You might want to ask who it is as I forgot the name.

San
Jeff Fields at transaxle engineering. They're on google.

Additionaly, Fred at Blackwatch Racing will build you a good C6X trans.

-Phil


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-17-2014, 05:45 PM
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Phil - thanks for the explanation.
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