Launch of the C8 Corvette & Lotus? - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Simplife View Post

This is America's answer to Everyman's Ferrari. The C8 must sell in the tens of thousands, therefore by default it cannot be a niche car. Since there is zero competition in this segment, it's success seems a foregone conclusion.
I feel like this is what Lotus did with the Elise, but obviously the Elise was too compromising for the general public (among other reasons). I think that's why most of us who deal with it's short comings feel like we have the best sports car for the money (though its not all about the money). But then again, why hasn't the Alfa 4c taken off at a price point of $60K, Because it lacks the V8 engine? It seems GM has a winning formula with the C8... However, feeling on the fence about seeing mid-engine corvettes on every corner. I wish they could have changed the name as well, can't help but envision a mullet every time I hear the name "Corvette", lol.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 06:51 AM
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I have to say that the biggest reason I have to not want a C8 is that it's a General Motors product. They've had (self-inflicted) logistics problems for decades, which result in a lot of owner pain with things that, at this late date, shouldn't even be under discussion. Historically, there are exactly two logistics models that work well for car manufacturers: Vertical integration (like Tesla mostly has, and GM had in the 30s-70s) and keiretsu (a symbiotic preferred supplier arrangement, like Japanese companies have traditionally used). Both allow consistent planning and focus on outcome at the product level in a way that the adversarial supplier relationships that GM, Fiat-Chrysler and, to a lesser extent, Ford, have do not.

Decade after decade I watch and wait, hoping that GM will eventually get their act together and actually execute building passenger vehicles with the consistency and reliability I expect of Honda or Toyota. Decade after decade there are things like the C5 fuel pump, or the current issue with Cruze turbo availability for warranty repair. The designs are there. The execution still seems to be lacking.

If I can't get a painless turnkey experience for 100K+ miles, as I would with a Honda or Toyota product and I have to break out the wrenches and the climate-controlled garage periodically, then I might as well have the higher fun factor of something actually exotic...like my Elise.
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 10:32 AM
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I was about to buy the new lotus Ejiva,... but ... I think i am going to spend the 1.5 million buying 25 new corvettes instead.

Oh snap! I'm on fire!
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 11:46 AM
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GM will have to sell thousands of these cars to make business sense. In a couple of years the resale value of a C8 will be low. Long term ownership of a C8 will not be a good deal. Too many cars new cars will roll out of the factory every year.
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 01:13 PM
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I inherited by Dad's C6. While the fit and finish wasn't that great, neither of us had any repair issues in the 9 years he and I had it. The resale value held up well until the C7 hit the market with its updated styling and better interior. Having room to take golf clubs was nice, but it was a grand touring car which is why I no longer have it and have the Elise for fun. As long as the performance is there, there will always be a demand for the Vette. I was just at a track day and about a quarter of the cars in my class were Corvettes, mostly C7's but a fair number of C5 and C6 also.
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 01:46 PM
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I'm not sure everyone realizes how large GM still is, even in its 2019 much-reduced straits. Total estimated revenue - not profit - from Corvette sales, on average for the 2013 through 2017 years, was less than 1.5% of GM's total revenue, based on an average sale price of $70,000 (which is probably high). They could give Corvettes away and it wouldn't make a difference, except that people buy other cars from them because of the Corvette. Let's say the profit margin is 15% (this seems to be backed up by a variety of web entries and articles), so that would mean close to 4% of profit, using the same parameters. But profit is an elusive thing, because GM could make money on cars, and easily lose $1B on derivatives and hedging strategies or FX in a single quarter. Maybe top line is a better metric.

I don't think there is a ton of cross-shopping with the Evora, but even if there is, how much lower could Evora sales get, and how much higher could Corvette sales get, just based on that? 25 units? 50 units? Less than meaningless to GM, but I guess impactful for Lotus.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 03:20 PM
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GM will have to sell thousands of these cars to make business sense. In a couple of years the resale value of a C8 will be low. Long term ownership of a C8 will not be a good deal. Too many cars new cars will roll out of the factory every year.
GM sells tens of thousands of Corvettes as-is. That scale probably something that helped them reach that sub $60k benchmark.

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Historically, there are exactly two logistics models that work well for car manufacturers: Vertical integration (like Tesla mostly has, and GM had in the 30s-70s) and keiretsu (a symbiotic preferred supplier arrangement, like Japanese companies have traditionally used).
Our experience begs to differ: the weeks-long wait for common body parts (and their not-so-great quality) for our Model S would suggest that it doesn't really "work".

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But profit is an elusive thing, because GM could make money on cars, and easily lose $1B on derivatives and hedging strategies or FX in a single quarter. Maybe top line is a better metric.
See Porsche in 2008 when it was basically a hedge fund that made cars for fun.

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Last edited by gray; 07-22-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 06:34 PM
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I'm not sure everyone realizes how large GM still is, even in its 2019 much-reduced straits. Total estimated revenue - not profit - from Corvette sales, on average for the 2013 through 2017 years, was less than 1.5% of GM's total revenue, based on an average sale price of $70,000 (which is probably high). They could give Corvettes away and it wouldn't make a difference, except that people buy other cars from them because of the Corvette. Let's say the profit margin is 15% (this seems to be backed up by a variety of web entries and articles), so that would mean close to 4% of profit, using the same parameters. But profit is an elusive thing, because GM could make money on cars, and easily lose $1B on derivatives and hedging strategies or FX in a single quarter. Maybe top line is a better metric.

I don't think there is a ton of cross-shopping with the Evora, but even if there is, how much lower could Evora sales get, and how much higher could Corvette sales get, just based on that? 25 units? 50 units? Less than meaningless to GM, but I guess impactful for Lotus.
You can always sell a few of something, but the evora is functionly dead. In Europe where exiges are still roadable the exige outsells the evora handily and the elise is still going relaively strong. The elise and Exige while relatively small in sales still have a unique sales proposition which the evora does not.

The evora is too expensive for what it is, it cant compete with any 911 variant, which supposedly it was a cometitor to. The lesson for lotus is stick with your core, your usp, and then slowly expand out keeping your virtues. Now if you could buy an evora 430(in the us) and for 85k thats a proposition, but you cant. However you will be able to buy a fast Me vette for that or less.

Lotus needs new product in the Us and fast, another bloated competitor for somthing already out there is not goinbg to cut it though. Maclren and Aston already has the brit High ground too.

But maybe a 2500lbs or less 450hp car is soemthign special, i hear theres one in the works.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-24-2019, 11:25 AM
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You can always sell a few of something, but the evora is functionly dead. In Europe where exiges are still roadable the exige outsells the evora handily and the elise is still going relaively strong. The elise and Exige while relatively small in sales still have a unique sales proposition which the evora does not.

The evora is too expensive for what it is, it cant compete with any 911 variant, which supposedly it was a cometitor to. The lesson for lotus is stick with your core, your usp, and then slowly expand out keeping your virtues. Now if you could buy an evora 430(in the us) and for 85k thats a proposition, but you cant. However you will be able to buy a fast Me vette for that or less.

Lotus needs new product in the Us and fast, another bloated competitor for somthing already out there is not goinbg to cut it though. Maclren and Aston already has the brit High ground too.

But maybe a 2500lbs or less 450hp car is soemthign special, i hear theres one in the works.
Yeah the Evora GT is pretty much to keep some U.S. dealers "happy" for now. The reality is that its not going to bring in many new customers, it will mainly be Lotus owners trading up to get the GT.

I am glad the C8 was announced now. Now Lotus (if they didn't already) know what they are up against when their new line-up comes out.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 08:05 PM
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No manual transmission = hard pass. Too bad, because it looks cool.
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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 08:26 PM
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No manual transmission = hard pass. Too bad, because it looks cool.
We might not like a new lotus if it comes with paddles too.
The vette is a Gt car, meant for everyday use, which means an AT/paddles. On track DCT/paddles simply work better, whether the rest of the C8 can hack it on track for more than a few laps is still an open question.



I love a stick for back roads where it makes the whole car infinitely more engaging, which in theory is the idea of a sportscar.

Would I take an evora over a c8 vette, assuming he vette is good then no. While an elige is a unique machine for which there is no substitute, and offers a truly unique road drive, I cant say the same for the Evora, cool as it is. Or put anpther way for the same $ I would go for a Gt4, and wells ee how good the vette is.

Howevr Lotus can now clearly see what its competition is, so they know what they need to do, simply make something better and more appealing for the same price or not too much more as the mass produced options. Kinda what they tried to do with the evora, and it would have worked if they started with the 400 and grew it form there.

Ill also walk back my point about there being no substitute for the elige, i think the new Alpine is it, alas no stick,lol.

Choices are good, the game is on, Lotus needs some new cars.
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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 02:18 PM
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We might not like a new lotus if it comes with paddles too.
The vette is a Gt car, meant for everyday use, which means an AT/paddles. On track DCT/paddles simply work better, whether the rest of the C8 can hack it on track for more than a few laps is still an open question.



I love a stick for back roads where it makes the whole car infinitely more engaging, which in theory is the idea of a sportscar.

Would I take an evora over a c8 vette, assuming he vette is good then no. While an elige is a unique machine for which there is no substitute, and offers a truly unique road drive, I cant say the same for the Evora, cool as it is. Or put anpther way for the same $ I would go for a Gt4, and wells ee how good the vette is.

Howevr Lotus can now clearly see what its competition is, so they know what they need to do, simply make something better and more appealing for the same price or not too much more as the mass produced options. Kinda what they tried to do with the evora, and it would have worked if they started with the 400 and grew it form there.

Ill also walk back my point about there being no substitute for the elige, i think the new Alpine is it, alas no stick,lol.

Choices are good, the game is on, Lotus needs some new cars.


If Lotus goes full paddle shifters I'd be quite sad, though I still have the Evora 400 I might upgrade to one day.

People make the argument that DCT is so much faster and more efficient than any human can ever shift, but the circumstances where I can take advantage of that performance improvement are so far away from what I like in my car and what I use it for (daily driver) that it's a non-starter for me. Not true for everyone of course.

I'd rather get the pleasure of using a manual transmission while driving normally 99% of the time than an automatic with cutting-edge shifting performance for the 1% of the time I'd be on a track, at most.

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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 07:11 AM
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I dunno, corvettes are not particularly engaging to drive. I think the goodness of the dual clutch transmissions has changed the game from "which is better" to what trade off do you want? The manual will be a more experiential drive. Working on rev-matching heel-toe down shifts in corners. It becomes more of a canyon carver. Absolutely awesome and fun. But let's not pretend the manual is ultimately faster. As much as I may wish it is, it isn't. For fastest lap time dual-clutch every time. Easiest in traffic, probably dual clutch. For Chevy to take this step is bold and smart. Sadly, the take rate on manuals was 15% and dropping. If I bought a C7, it would be a manual, full stop. When I want to row the gears, the Elise is waiting for me......


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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 04:29 AM
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Corvette C8 curb Weight (pounds): 3,366
End of discussion.
and that is Dry weight
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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 06:46 AM
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and that is Dry weight
If the internet had existed back when the Esprit S1 was introduced as a replacement for the Twin Cam Europa, I wonder if there would've been posts saying "25% heavier than the Europa, end of discussion."

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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 08:33 AM
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According to its designer, 2020 Corvette production is already nearing a sell out.
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