Who is Happy with the Direction Lotus is leading us Towards? - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #41 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 10:10 AM
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As I mentioned in the "Unhappy" thread, there is a lot of potential here to still make cars that adhere to Chapman's philosophy while maintaining the heavier lineup featured in Paris. And again, those in the "What would Chapman do?" camp need to understand that a company also needs to be profitable and adapt to changing demands, and the lightweight purist market is simply not big enough for Lotus and Dany Bahar's taste.

The main thing that I was disappointed in was the design language - it works for some of the Lotus concepts but doesn't work for all. Also I don't feel that the new design really sets them apart either from each other or from other manufacturers, some of the cars could use some cosmetic tweaks to get there. Hopefully Lotus will address those points before production. I'm really looking forward to seeing the Esprit, Elan, and Elite in production form. All I can say is this coming LA Auto Show will be the most I look forward to in any car show.

One thing that I just thought about... are the prices posted for the new cars inflation-adjusted for 2013-2015? If so then the new Elise may actually be priced comparably to the current one.

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post #42 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by profsu View Post
I am disappointed about the tone of discussions here. I had hoped Lotus fans would be more supportive of the Lotus brand. If Lotus does not succeed, you have nothing to root for. That is incredibly sad.

Why do I need to root for them if they aren't building cars that I am interested in anymore?

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post #43 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
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I'm happy with this direction and I am happy for Lotus. Lotus deserves to dream big and be bold!

Most complaints that I've read on this forum are superficial, about styling and some weight issues. Sorry, since when does styling trump performance??? These are prototypes. Styling will change. Yes, weight is important. But I do not see why every Lotus has to weigh under 2000 pounds.

I consider myself a re-born Lotus fan (loved the 70's and 80's Lotus cars, but did not own any of them as I did not have the money or the legal age to drive). So I'm relatively new here. The point is that I would never had considered a Lotus if the Evora wasn't on the market. I guess it makes a small point that Evora and other (heavier maybe, but more powerful) Lotus vehicles have a future.
I am disappointed about the tone of discussions here. I had hoped Lotus fans would be more supportive of the Lotus brand. If Lotus does not succeed, you have nothing to root for. That is incredibly sad.
Thank you

This is the market Lotus is going after. There's still plenty of people who do not know Lotus or only know them from the Esprit days. People WILL buy these new models because it's different, THEY like the styling and probably more importantly, because THEIR perception of what it cost is justified. How many times do we hear, "wow, it looks like a $100K+ car well now they'd be right when discussing about the Elan, Esprit, Elite & Eterne.

The Elise is said to be priced at $55K so I don't know where the $70K-$80K is coming from That'd be more in line with the new Exige or Evora

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post #44 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 10:52 AM
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Starting to pack my lunch, skipping Starbucks, and clipping coupons so I can afford an Elan.
By far my favorite too. hmm, 3 years to production. 40% depreciation after 5 years. Is it 2018 yet?

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post #45 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 10:54 AM
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This will make Lotus more relevant in the long term. It's just a question of whether they continue to make cars I want to buy. I suspect they will.
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post #46 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 10:57 AM
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First the looks of the show cars. The Elan is definitely the best looker to me! All show cars are over the top looking for rxn just like this. Guaranteed they're reading these threads!!
Second, Looks like Evora is a 5 year stopgap measure
Third, one doesn't need both an Exige and Elise (identical cars with slightly different body panels). That makes sense to me.
As to the prices points discussed earlier.


"I'm happy with their new models but they must keep their price range acceptable under Ferrari and lambos. The Elise and Exige still have their own place with those futur coming models because they deserve a totally different kind of customer.

The Elan and the Esprit look awesome and very modern. I wish I could afford the new Elan.

This is how their product line should be priced : MY idea is as followss

Elise : 55k-60K (50-65K NA v. s260 type variety)

Exige : 70-75K (not needed, new body is best of both worlds)

Evora : 80K-85K (66K base-85K for an s model)

Elan : 100-105k acceptable

Esprit : 150K acceptable"

They need to keep the entry point reasonable to get younger or less affluent buyers into the brand earlier. Or keep us track toy types in the mix. I feel very strongly that not only has the economy hurt recent sales, but prices have escalated far too aggressively. I would already own a new Evora for 70K, maybe 75K tops Loaded but not for 85K!. Or if I could have gotten a ~2008-2009 Elise with Katana power levels for ~60K tops, I'd have traded in my 2005 for one. I'll bet there are a lot of folks looking at the stickers like I do. For 50K loaded in 2005 the Elise was a great deal. Price out a loaded (equally) one for 2010 in a down economy, see what I mean!

Lotus to me is Mario Andretti, Formula 1, legendary, it is for those of us that want extreme performance, but with a uniqueness of character that big $$ alone can't buy. The Esprit is STILL on my radar 25+ years after I first saw one or saw them in Bond flicks!
Getting back to the new, however, change is good. Look at the incredible new Jag XJ v. the ~40yr evolution of the old style. Even Porsche is going to finally give up that archaic old design on the 911 someday. Awesome car, but its getting pretty boring to look at a new set of headlights or blah, blah, blah!
Again, that Elan is gorgeous, but if that new Elise has the Toyubie powerplant I suspect is in development, aka STi motor, that would be a dream come true, cause the thing I miss most about my STi was the torque laden motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2500-lbs and 350 big torque HP would be a track slayer!! kinda like Z06's are now.

If nothing else, the next few years are going to be fun to watch on the Lotus front.

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post #47 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 11:03 AM
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By far my favorite too. hmm, 3 years to production. 40% depreciation after 5 years. Is it 2018 yet?
Or, go back to college and bump up the career. You have time. Actually, they should uses this concept cars and put them in 12 grade and college classrooms with the sign "Coming 2015!"

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post #48 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 11:07 AM
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+1. The Elise as a convertible and Exige as a harder edge coupe would make more sense.

Also, when these cars come, Lotus should have some factory financing or leasing programs that's comparable to Porsche, BMW, or Mercedes.



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Originally Posted by brgelise View Post
Third, one doesn't need both an Exige and Elise (identical cars with slightly different body panels).

"I'm happy with their new models but they must keep their price range acceptable under Ferrari and lambos. The Elise and Exige still have their own place with those futur coming models because they deserve a totally different kind of customer.

The Elan and the Esprit look awesome and very modern. I wish I could afford the new Elan.

This is how their product line should be priced : MY idea is as followss

Elise : 55k-60K (50-65K NA v. s260 type variety)

Exige : 70-75K (not needed, new body is best of both worlds)

Evora : 80K-85K (66K base-85K for an s model)

Elan : 100-105k acceptable

Esprit : 150K acceptable"

They need to keep the entry point reasonable to get younger or less affluent buyers into the brand earlier. Or keep us track toy types in the mix. I feel very strongly that not only has the economy hurt recent sales, but prices have escalated far too aggressively. I would already own a new Evora for 70K, maybe 75K tops Loaded but not for 85K!. Or if I could have gotten a ~2008-2009 Elise with Katana power levels for ~60K tops, I'd have traded in my 2005 for one. I'll bet there are a lot of folks looking at the stickers like I do. For 50K loaded in 2005 the Elise was a great deal. Price out a loaded (equally) one for 2010 in a down economy, see what I mean!

Lotus to me is Mario Andretti, Formula 1, legendary, it is for those of us that want extreme performance, but with a uniqueness of character that big $$ alone can't buy. The Esprit is STILL on my radar 25+ years after I first saw one or saw them in Bond flicks!
Getting back to the new, however, change is good. Look at the incredible new Jag XJ v. the ~40yr evolution of the old style. Even Porsche is going to finally give up that archaic old design on the 911 someday. Awesome car, but its getting pretty boring to look at a new set of headlights or blah, blah, blah!
Again, that Elan is gorgeous, but if that new Elise has the Toyubie powerplant I suspect is in development, aka STi motor, that would be a dream come true, cause the thing I miss most about my STi was the torque laden motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2500-lbs and 350 big torque HP would be a track slayer!! kinda like Z06's are now.

If nothing else, the next few years are going to be fun to watch on the Lotus front.

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post #49 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 11:36 AM
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Lotus died once it made the Evora.

I was looking forward to the new Esprit, but now that it will only have a DSG (PDK) DCT, it won't be entertaining to drive.

Power steering, and over 3000 lbs. equal Porsche and Ferrari. (Yuck and Ick.)

I'll have to stick to used Elises.
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post #50 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 12:09 PM
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I'm happy about:
- Rear styling
- 320+ HP
- 5 new models, a plan for the future and business viability
- Marked increase in racing participation

Not too thrilled about:
- The front. Perhaps it will grow on me, but I don't like the angular look. Would have liked to see some curves.
- One of the key Elise trademark is the low weight and to that extent, would have liked to have seen the weight under 2250 lbs
- Fall out with the Lotus Racing team
- Not sure how to explain it, but Bahar and his chief designer keeps banging on about 'exclusivity' as one of the main reasons to buy a Lotus, which is a bit of a turn off for me.
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post #51 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 12:14 PM
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I know I've been pretty negative or at least sounded that way. I'm all for the new cars, I think the designs are actually pretty good especially the Esprit, Elan and Elise. The Elite for me is a little to generic and the sedan has some quirky angles. The total different design direction was a bit of a shock but they look so much more modern than the current Elise and Evora so job done.

My biggest issue is finance, I know Proton has made a huge commitment but I don't want to see this money wasted, like trying to start their own F1 team when there already is on that someone else is financing, Protons cash will go away quickly if they put it in F1.

Next I'm worried with what happens if they miss the mark and the sales don't come? For me it's a little to much to quick and I'm afraid that the new cars won't sell although I'm sure they'll be awesome and what's Proton going to do then after dumping $800m..... Will Ferrari/Lambo/AM buyers go straight to a Lotus? I think they slowly need to ramp up the new car introduction and build the idea of Lotus being practical and sporty. Remember it took Ferrari almost 10 years to have usable supercars once they got their head around it.

I don't care about heavier Lotus cars once they are still lighter than their direct competition but the Elise should at least be offered in a stripped out variant that weighs close to the current car.

My last concern is pricing the bottom model out of enthusiasts hands. The current Elise is ~$45000 for the stripped version (and remember the Euro guys have one even cheaper) which is an easy number to swallow for a track/fun car. I'm concerned that if all the Elise models are over $50k then they're going to be depending too much on getting people out of the TTs and Boxsters, which goes back to my concern of them making money, it would make more sense to make it soft enough to temp the non enthusiast out of their Porsche/TT/SLK and also keep the enthusiast

Trust me I really hope they're successful and still provide a stripped cheap Elise for the enthusiast as it'll guarantee the company will be around for the future which it deserves.

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post #52 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by profsu View Post
I'm happy with this direction and I am happy for Lotus. Lotus deserves to dream big and be bold!

Most complaints that I've read on this forum are superficial, about styling and some weight issues. Sorry, since when does styling trump performance??? These are prototypes. Styling will change. Yes, weight is important. But I do not see why every Lotus has to weigh under 2000 pounds.

I consider myself a re-born Lotus fan (loved the 70's and 80's Lotus cars, but did not own any of them as I did not have the money or the legal age to drive). So I'm relatively new here. The point is that I would never had considered a Lotus if the Evora wasn't on the market. I guess it makes a small point that Evora and other (heavier maybe, but more powerful) Lotus vehicles have a future.

I am disappointed about the tone of discussions here. I had hoped Lotus fans would be more supportive of the Lotus brand. If Lotus does not succeed, you have nothing to root for. That is incredibly sad.
I am new here at LotusTalk, and I must agree with you; there seems to be way too much hand wringing since the Paris intro. A great deal of the anguish aimed at the prices of the new Lotus car range.
Things change in this world, and this is part of it. From the looks of the general public's reaction: Lotus appears to be headed for a more successful future. I commend them.
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post #53 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 12:30 PM
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Also, when these cars come, Lotus should have some factory financing or leasing programs that's comparable to Porsche, BMW, or Mercedes.
++1


Lotus needs a finance company with them to help dealers selling more cars with a more affordable interest rate loan.

Having to deal directly with the banks with a rate of 7%-10% for a personnal loan is killer.

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post #54 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 01:09 PM
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Spoke to someone from Lotus USA several weeks ago. For the Paris show, it sounded like and Abe has mention it before, best case all 5 models come out in the time-line given. If things go well in Paris and LA next month. Otherwise expect to see 2-3. Suspect those would be the Elise, Esprit and Elan. From the autoguide blurb, they mention a convertible Elan a year after intro.

On the Elise- Lotus Elise News: 2015 Lotus Elise Revealed ? Car and Driver gives the $55k USD or 35k(pounds) price point. A few years ago, when they were still working on the module type chassis that the Evora and Esprit are based on, recall it being said that it could not be taken down to fit the current Elise. Based on the C&D link that is what they are using. Which would account for the size/weight increase, along with the bigger engine, turbo or SC and intercooler. In that sense think Lotus did a good job of keeping the weight reasonable. Doubt this would be the only powerplant offer. Certainly HP helps to sell cars. But the markets other then the USA are pretty sensitive to gas prices. So wouldn't be surprised if a smaller displacement NA motor would be available, that alone could easily drop 100 pounds and $3-5k (not that we would see it here) at $55k that is a lot of bang for the buck and within 15% of the sticker price when I picked up my Elise in early '05.
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post #55 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 01:37 PM
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++1


Lotus needs a finance company with them to help dealers selling more cars with a more affordable interest rate loan.

Having to deal directly with the banks with a rate of 7%-10% for a personnal loan is killer.
You could try credit unions. Some are around 4% right now.

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post #56 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 01:43 PM
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The styling is starting to grow on me a little bit except for the Elise which is just plain ugly relative to the current Elise IMO.
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post #57 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 02:03 PM
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You could try credit unions. Some are around 4% right now.
Could you give me more infos about it ?

A website or something else.

Is it for canadian customer too ?

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post #58 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 02:05 PM Thread Starter
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The styling is starting to grow on me a little bit except for the Elise which is just plain ugly relative to the current Elise IMO.
In one of the interviews, Lotus (Kevin Smith) is quoted as saying the cars will look 90-95% to what we're seeing now. Maybe that 5-10% difference will have a "more" positive impact as how they view the Elise or any other model for that matter.

I don't know why but that Elite with it's "see-thu" convertible top really looks good IMO same with the Elise
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post #59 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 02:10 PM
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I'm sort of in the middle. I find the designs to be too derivative of each other and certainly not anything that would make me lust for a new Lotus. Porsche has made themselves is a prisoner of the 911 styling and it looks a little lame on the Cayenne and BM, sorry, Panamera.

Lotus has no such history, so if they are trying to emulate Ferrari, how about considering that there is a bit of variety in the look of the various Ferrari models? I might not like the California much, but I think the 458 Italia is stunning.

With the new Lotus models, if you don't like "catfish", you are pretty much screwed. Profiles are ok and most rears are fairly nice. Just not too inspiring overall.

As far as the direction of the company, there is no question that they have to start making some "real" cars to survive. Fine, knock yourselves out, lay on all the luxuries, get some 600 HP models out there so that the targeted buyers can get to Starbuck's a little sooner. I'm fine with that. Hopefully it will allow Lotus to survive and prosper.

But, PLEASE, don't make the Elise into a mini-barge. I don't want four or five hundred pounds to be added (how about taking a couple hundred OFF?). I know the market for REAL driver's cars is very limited. Most people who say they want a racecar for the street, really don't. But some of us do and no amount of horsepower and computer nannies will make mass go away.

I know people who bought an Exige and missed the nimble feeling of their Elise, in spite of the greater power of the Exige. And we are certainly not talking 4-500 difference in weight there!

I wish Lotus well. But, I love the feeling of my LITTLE Elise and plan to keep it. If I decide to get something larger, heavier and more powerful, there are already many, many manufacturers making those cars.

Frankly, I'd probably just buy a used 360 Ferrari Modena. I always liked them and they drive beautifully, even if they are a little heavy. The current price is not far off a new Elise.


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Ferrari, lambo, audi all got together for an espresso today in paris and said "whew... for a few weeks there we were starting to get worried! glad thats over..."

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
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