Who is Happy with the Direction Lotus is leading us Towards? - Page 6 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #101 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-02-2010, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by apk919 View Post
So no more track oriented, street-legal Lotus? That would be a shame...
No, I wouldn't say that. Look, I know as much as you guys do and all I'm saying is that with these 5 cars, that's the market Lotus is focusing on.

My theory, Lotus might have a big surprise in store for all the hard core enthusiasts if and when they announce the new Exige....there's no way they can mess with that, or could they?

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post #102 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-02-2010, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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One other question:

Where is the $ coming from to develop the new models and potentially expand capacity? I can't help but be a bit skeptical that most of the new models will make production.
There was so much news on the unveiling that I forgot where I read it from but apparently, this project is somewhere in the vicinity of $700M-$1.2B dollar investment which has been approved by Proton. I think there's also a video on this. I'll try and find it and who knows really? it can all be a smoke screen for all we know.

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post #103 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 12:33 AM
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My concern is simple marketing. For Lotus to compete with the likes of Ferrari and Porsche they need two things.
1) Quality of product
2) Brand presence.

I am sure that Lotus can and are able to up their game over quality and the new designs are stunning but and it is a big BUT, they are going into a market where Ferrari carrys more image than Lotus. Where money isnt really an object, most of the people who buy them wouldn't know a subereb handling car if it bit them in the nose and if you have to ask how much you can't afford it and the likely demograph couldnt give a hoot about emissions.

Developing that many new cars is going to put a huge burden on Lotus and they are counting on models selling as well as projected to finance the next model. My fear is that this is a jump to far and maybe they needed to aim a little lower first and make sure they have some banker models selling first.

Mike
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post #104 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 06:21 AM
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Hi
My concern is simple marketing. For Lotus to compete with the likes of Ferrari and Porsche they need two things.
1) Quality of product
2) Brand presence.

I am sure that Lotus can and are able to up their game over quality and the new designs are stunning but and it is a big BUT, they are going into a market where Ferrari carrys more image than Lotus. Where money isnt really an object, most of the people who buy them wouldn't know a subereb handling car if it bit them in the nose and if you have to ask how much you can't afford it and the likely demograph couldnt give a hoot about emissions.

Developing that many new cars is going to put a huge burden on Lotus and they are counting on models selling as well as projected to finance the next model. My fear is that this is a jump to far and maybe they needed to aim a little lower first and make sure they have some banker models selling first.

Mike
Agree on all points, Mike. Except #1 when talking "quality" vs Ferrari. Sure, Porsche puts a better car together than Lotus or Ferrari. Take a look at problems reported by F355 owners, 360 owners, etc, etc. Ferrari isnt anywhere near Porsche when it comes to quality(never have been). They are just starting to get thir act together and the F430 and 458 are probably fine but anything up until then was dicey...just like Lotus cars!

Just saying.

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post #105 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeHannah View Post
Hi
My concern is simple marketing. For Lotus to compete with the likes of Ferrari and Porsche they need two things.
1) Quality of product
2) Brand presence.

I am sure that Lotus can and are able to up their game over quality and the new designs are stunning but and it is a big BUT, they are going into a market where Ferrari carrys more image than Lotus. Where money isnt really an object, most of the people who buy them wouldn't know a subereb handling car if it bit them in the nose and if you have to ask how much you can't afford it and the likely demograph couldnt give a hoot about emissions.

Developing that many new cars is going to put a huge burden on Lotus and they are counting on models selling as well as projected to finance the next model. My fear is that this is a jump to far and maybe they needed to aim a little lower first and make sure they have some banker models selling first.

Mike
Agreed on both. Why not outsource production to Toyota / Lexus and leverage the Lexus dealer network to get presence? To write a $1 Billion check, Lotus must have some big plan to deal with both issues. IMHO that's why the new designs look like Lexus' and Toyotas (MR2, FT-86 Concept).
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post #106 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 08:25 AM
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They are just starting to get thir act together and the F430 and 458 are probably fine but anything up until then was dicey...just like Lotus cars!

Just saying.
Doesn't the 458 have those spontaneous combustion problems?

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post #107 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 08:42 AM
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Doesn't the 458 have those spontaneous combustion problems?
Yes, they used an epoxy near the engine bay that catches fire.

Sold Lotus, bought 911C4S. The Lotus didn't do too well in the snow.
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post #108 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Abe View Post
To be accurate, you need to compare a 2011 Elise SC to a 2015 Elise.


Current Model
  • 220HP
  • $54,900 Base Price
  • Weighs 2041 LBS

Future Model
  • 319HP
  • $55,372.20 Base Price per Lotus (35K BP)
  • Will Weigh between 2300-2409 LBS. per Lotus

So you mean to tell me that for $472.20 more I get a 100 more HP's and all I'm sacrificing is only between 259-368 LBS????

1/2 a ton
A sacrifice I'd NEVER make. I don't see why Lotus couldn't do both? Have the nice daily drive supercars (as heavy as any other supercar) while focusing on keeping the Elise/Exige as light as possible ... Less is more. Lotus have the Evora and Evora S, absolutely no need to pork out the Elise/Exige.

Is Lotus really planning to fatten up Elise/Exige? Now that would be a waste of time and money and bad business decision especially when we can get 319 HP out of this car already with very little invested. If Lotus want to invest money in the Elise/Exige for future models, they should start in on the custom engine program they've worked out with Toyota and get a real "race worthy" motor in the Elise/Exige along with a Transmission to match -- but that should NOT require adding 259-368 lbs.

In a car this small, 259-368 lbs is HUGE (probably 3-5 seconds a lap), sure 100 HP will recover about 2-3 seconds but you're still worse off and tire wear, brake wear, etc. etc. increases. I hope you're wrong on the Elise/Exige direction -- should be the other way, make the car more harsh, lighter, more track worthy.

Rob

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post #109 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 09:33 AM
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Cars more harsh won't sell in any appreciable volume. It's not far from the current Elise to a car that isn't street legal in the US. That said, I think they should offer a 'track' version which does strip out all of the amenities. It could be a factory option.

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post #110 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 09:47 AM
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Guess you missed the part about Lotus Racing not being affiliated with Group Lotus (There-by, Lotus cars). And the fact that Group Lotus is trying to remove the "Lotus Racing" team from the ability to use the name.
Actually I read that. Quite sad. For the current season at least I should add.


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post #111 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-03-2010, 09:12 PM
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Cars more harsh won't sell in any appreciable volume. It's not far from the current Elise to a car that isn't street legal in the US. That said, I think they should offer a 'track' version which does strip out all of the amenities. It could be a factory option.
Already do, the cup car. However, I wouldn't consider it "track worthy" without some changes.

Agree, harsh cars don't sell, that's why Lotus have the Evora and they are moving to a "comfy" mass market. Exactly why I think they should go more extreme on the Elise/Exige as they now have other models that fit the "less harsh" folks.

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post #112 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-07-2010, 03:25 PM
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It should be even more obvious to Lotus enthusiasts than to any other car enthusiasts... a car's performance is more than just HP/weight. My Exige S and my 2-Eleven have basically the same engine, chassis, suspension, and brakes... but the 2-Eleven is 400 pounds lighter and is far faster, nimbler, and exciting to drive.
Here we go. Totally agree.
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post #113 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-09-2010, 06:47 AM
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A sacrifice I'd NEVER make. I don't see why Lotus couldn't do both? Have the nice daily drive supercars (as heavy as any other supercar) while focusing on keeping the Elise/Exige as light as possible ... Less is more. Lotus have the Evora and Evora S, absolutely no need to pork out the Elise/Exige.

Is Lotus really planning to fatten up Elise/Exige? Now that would be a waste of time and money and bad business decision especially when we can get 319 HP out of this car already with very little invested. If Lotus want to invest money in the Elise/Exige for future models, they should start in on the custom engine program they've worked out with Toyota and get a real "race worthy" motor in the Elise/Exige along with a Transmission to match -- but that should NOT require adding 259-368 lbs.

In a car this small, 259-368 lbs is HUGE (probably 3-5 seconds a lap), sure 100 HP will recover about 2-3 seconds but you're still worse off and tire wear, brake wear, etc. etc. increases. I hope you're wrong on the Elise/Exige direction -- should be the other way, make the car more harsh, lighter, more track worthy.

Rob

2400lbs ---------- 319 HP

2 000lbs --------- X


The current elise need 265HP to have the same power to weight ratio as the 2015 Elise.

If the 2015 elise have those specs it will never be slower on a track than the current 190-218HP Elise.

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post #114 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-09-2010, 08:12 AM
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I think the new direction is fantastic. Holding on to the past is just silly. Lotus can't survive without a new direction.

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post #115 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-09-2010, 09:01 AM
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I'm a little late to this thread, but this Lotus has a sad face instead of a happy face.

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post #116 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-09-2010, 11:48 AM
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From my focus group of one...I showed my wife the pics and here are her reactions:

"Ooh, that looks nice...better than the Rapide."-The Eterne.

"It has 620hp?" "And a carbon fiber body," I add. "That looks cool, but in your dreams, pal."-The Esprit.

"Now, that looks great. And a folding hard top? Cool. I'll bet it's verrrry expensive. The bad guy in the next Bond flick should have one."-The Elite.

"I could see you in one of these in dark red. That is beautiful. Looks kind of like the Evora, only sharper-edged. How expensive will it be?...Oh...you better start mowing more lawns...maybe get a paper route."-The Elan

"...uh...ehhh...what is that? No way!! (I mention its weight-she knows mine is just under 1900 after five years of tiny mods) "Oh, you must hate that.
It's weird...it has the same elements, but it is ugly. Sorry, it just is."-The Elise.

Her verdict? "Hey, four out of five isn't bad!"

Tom
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post #117 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-09-2010, 02:41 PM
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=Abe;1501039]To be accurate, you need to compare a 2011 Elise SC to a 2015 Elise.

Current Model
  • 220HP
  • $54,900 Base Price
  • Weighs 2041 LBS

Future Model
  • 319HP
  • $55,372.20 Base Price per Lotus (35K BP)
  • Will Weigh between 2300-2409 LBS. per Lotus

So you mean to tell me that for $472.20 more I get a 100 more HP's and all I'm sacrificing is only between 259-368 LBS????
Heck, when you put it that way I get all excited!

But then I remember when the Evora was going to be ~2500 pounds and the S2 Elise would be only a couple hundred pounds heavier than the S1 and would be < 40k. Frankly, based on past performance, I wouldn't be surprised if the new model comes in at 65k and weighs 2700 pounds - and that I am definitely not excited about.

Other than that, I have to wonder. Reading the thread the conservative numbers are that the new Lotus plan:
- will sell up to 8000 cars a year
- will spend at least 800 million on new development
Frankly, to get a decent (or any) return on investment, it is clear that Lotus is not looking to sell many $55k cars.

So, good luck. I will be watching, and hoping. I'll even make you a deal - if Lotus can mildy overdeliver on the proposed specs I WILL buy one. Let's say 325hp, 2250lbs and $54999.00. Even if it does come with a Camry engine. How's that?

O
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post #118 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-09-2010, 05:22 PM
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Let's say they put in $1billion. The cost of capital must be at least 8% and probably higher given that this is a new venture. For a company to make this sort of investment it requires equity as well as debt. Just to make things simple let's say the tax rate is 0%. In order to service this investment you would have to deliver $80 million per year amortized over 8000 vehicles. That means Lotus would need to make $100,000 profit on each unit. Factor in taxes and the number goes up from there.
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post #119 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-09-2010, 10:04 PM
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Let's say they put in $1billion. The cost of capital must be at least 8% and probably higher given that this is a new venture. For a company to make this sort of investment it requires equity as well as debt. Just to make things simple let's say the tax rate is 0%. In order to service this investment you would have to deliver $80 million per year amortized over 8000 vehicles. That means Lotus would need to make $100,000 profit on each unit. Factor in taxes and the number goes up from there.

Not sure how you came up with these figures but it just sounds ludicrous.... $100,000 profit per unit? LOL..

BTW.. When it comes to profits, it's all about the loans. Literally speaking, the cars are just vehicles to generate loans. While this may or not apply to smaller companies like Lotus, it certainly applies to the major ones.
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post #120 of 149 (permalink) Old 10-13-2010, 11:43 PM
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I'm a little late to this thread, but this Lotus has a sad face instead of a happy face.
Paradoxically your observation made me

I posted this link elsewhere.. but I found this rather pessimistic blog well thought out..

In Context: The New Lotus
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