NHTSA Investigates 4400 Lotus Elises for Oil Cooler Leaks - Page 5 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #81 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 12:45 PM
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IMO

It appears to be a legitimate problem. If it does in fact prove to be a problem Lotus should fix it.

If fixing the problem drives a company out of business or out of the USA that is just the way capitalism is supposed to work.

Those who think a $50,000 or a $1,500,000 limited production specialty car shouldn’t have problems should stick to Toyota’s that don’t have problems : or a Porsche, Corvette, Subi… which seem to be acknowledged on this site as automotive perfection.

Stop the whining. Lotus owners shouldn’t whine.
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post #82 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by darkSol View Post
Loved your post Rob - definitely one of your best. The car is pure aftermarket crack.

BTW I tried to find your resultant weight saving post for removing all 27' of oil cooler hose / front coolers (and adding the Mocal). Can you refresh my memory?

Thanks!
Here is the link to his post.
https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f312...ter-oil-88375/

Looks like about 20 lbs.

I'd love to get a Mocal unit out of this. Throw in a ProRad while you are at it Danny!
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post #83 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 01:56 PM
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blown engine and oil all over tires are not catastrofic? what freakin planet are you on?
my assumtion was right, since you don't even own one, your opinion count for ziltch, why do you care anyways? later.
This is what I meant about some posts being overly dramatic.

I do care because I'd like to see the data about the failures and I'm sure so would Lotus.
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post #84 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 02:08 PM
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This is what I meant about some posts being overly dramatic.

I do care because I'd like to see the data about the failures and I'm sure so would Lotus.
I'm done responding to the trolling. you have no skin in this game, its not your car that you have to worry about blowing oil on your tires randomly while you are taking a corner or paying 10s of thousands to replace an engine that is a couple years old.

Welcome to my ignore list.

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post #85 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 02:52 PM
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As someone who works with incident reports, recalls, and consumer alerts on a daily basis the phrase immanent hazard comes to mind.

How likely is it that the oil line on a car will fail and what is the likely hood that a failure will result in injury.

Immanent hazard in my mind means that when a driver operates the car they will be injured. Or when a driver gets into his/her car there is a very high chance of injury. For the oil line situation this is not the case in my opinion.

What is the probability that if an oil line fails it will result in an immanent hazard? I would say that an oil line failure would only result in immanent hazard if a number of conditions are met and the chance of these conditions being met are relatively low. If the line goes at high speed or corner will it positively result in injury? I don’t think there is evidence to support this is true.

While I would love to get my oil lines replace free of charge, I do not get as excited about this issue as others.

For those that believe this is an immanent hazard and continue to drive their cars would they not be at fault for driving a car they believe is unsafe? Just at fault as Lotus for any injuries or damage?

I have only had my car for 11 months and have put almost 10,000 miles on it. Odometer now reads 58934 ish now. Luckily I have had not one issue to deal with, but I did purchase the car knowing the possible issues. The reward out weighted the risk.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #86 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 03:56 PM
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If the line goes at high speed or corner will it positively result in injury?
I would say that if it happened to me, the results could mean my car with me in it might be going over the side of a mountain. Doing spirited canyon runs is how I enjoy my car. And every car following behind me might have the same fate.

I'm not waiting for a response from Lotus. I've already paid out of my own pocket to have the oil lines and ends completely replaced with better components.

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post #87 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 04:02 PM
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+1
Most of the time when I'm in my Lotus, I'm droving on mountain roads, If I'm taking a corner and lose traction due to oil on my tires, I'm going down the freakin cliff. (and most likely won't be able to report to the NHTSA)

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post #88 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 04:45 PM
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Immanent hazard in my mind means that when a driver operates the car they will be injured. Or when a driver gets into his/her car there is a very high chance of injury. For the oil line situation this is not the case in my opinion.

What is the probability that if an oil line fails it will result in an immanent hazard? I would say that an oil line failure would only result in immanent hazard if a number of conditions are met and the chance of these conditions being met are relatively low. If the line goes at high speed or corner will it positively result in injury? I don’t think there is evidence to support this is true.
I disagree - in the case of an oil line failure, there is a HUGE danger of loss of control of the car leading to a spin over the side of the road, into oncoming traffic or a stationary object.

When these lines fail, the oil is being pumped in high volume at a high pressure.

The front oil lines terminate DIRECTLY in front of the front wheels. If the failure occurs at the sandwich plate the oil will pool on the body fairing and spill out in front of the rear wheels (and some will harmlessly escape through the NACA ducts and become a huge hazard for subsequent motorists).

You say immanent, I say imminent, let's call the whole thing off!

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post #89 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 07:50 PM
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I'm new here and I'm new to Lotus. I picked up on this thread when it had maybe five or ten posts. At that point, I started writing a reply giving the "you shouldn'tna bought a Lotus if you really wanted a Camry" point of view.

Before I clicked the submit button, I thought better of it and I'm glad I did.

Having read all the posts to date, I think I understand both sides of the argument a little better now and I find I agree with aspects of each. I think this is the kind of problem Lotus should step up and fix on all affected cars, which seems like all Elises and Exiges from all model years. At he same time, I understand these are low production, hand built, high performance cars that are sorta' special and not Maytag appliances. Therefore, I accept responsibility for more headaches.

I also agree with the idea that, if an owner recognizes a risk that's he or she considers unacceptable, that owner has a responsibility to either fix it or refrain from driving the car until Lotus fixes it. Maybe "responsibility" isn't exactly the right word to use. Maybe "prudent" would be a better word. Then again, maybe both of those words are equally applicable.

I'm not terribly concerned about a catastrophic failure that causes me to suddenly lose control and crash. Of course that could happen. Hell, I could win the lottery or get killed by a chunk of space junk too. Or more likely, buy it cause some sixteen year old chick is texting while she's putting on her make up and smoking a cigarette, all at the same time, instead of driving her damn car.

I'm honestly more concerned about blowing up my motor, or getting stranded out in the middle of BFE with my wife and Chihuahua, or just having to deal with a big oily mess in my car. Those risks alone motivate me to look into a preventive fix that I'll pay for. If Lotus steps up later, maybe I'll try to get some kind of compensation from them then. Fat chance on that happenin', right?

So sorry about going to the moon and back in order to get to the other side of the steet here, but, I'd like to see some discussion about how we can fix our own cars if we choose to do so.
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post #90 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 08:07 PM
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regarding the question whether or not to preemptively fix the problem, sure if its an easy cheap fix, I would've done it months ago.

It is not, you need to remove the clam to get it done. Why should I spend my own hard earned money when this is something that should be fixed? Yes I check it to make sure nothing leaks, but I'm not about to pull off the clam to "fix" something that is not obviously broken yet.

If I pay to get it fixed when nothing is leaking, what are the chances of me getting that money compensated from Lotus? A big fat zero.

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post #91 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 09:05 PM
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regarding the question whether or not to preemptively fix the problem, sure if its an easy cheap fix, I would've done it months ago.

It is not, you need to remove the clam to get it done. Why should I spend my own hard earned money when this is something that should be fixed? Yes I check it to make sure nothing leaks, but I'm not about to pull off the clam to "fix" something that is not obviously broken yet.

If I pay to get it fixed when nothing is leaking, what are the chances of me getting that money compensated from Lotus? A big fat zero.
I guess you're repsonding to me?

The clam has to come off, huh? Wow.

Well, you've told me something I didn't know. I'm still trying to figure out what needs to be done, so that's helpful. Thanks.

Why should you pay for it? I don't think you should. Clearly, Lotus should pay for it. I thought I said something to that effect.

I guess what it comes down to is, take responsibility or take a risk. Each of us has to make up our own mind. And yeah, there's probably not much chance we'd get compensated later if we paid for a fix before Lotus steps up to the plate particularly if the fix involves aftermarket parts. But, realistically there's probably not much chance Lotus will step up. I hope I'm wrong, but I've been down this rat hole before with another vehicle, a Toyota FJ Cruiser, without satisfactory results.

The only thing I remember Jimmy Carter say that made any sense to me was something like "there are things in life that are not fair." I know that's the fact and so I just deal with it when necessary. This may be one of those times.

I bought my car to enjoy it, not worry about it. If I decide there's a sufficient risk and if I can prevent the problem for a price I consider reasonable, I think a preventive fix would probably make more sense to me than taking my chances, whether I get compensated by Lotus later or not. But that's just me and what's reasonable to me might not be reasonable to you.
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post #92 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 09:53 PM
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I bypassed my oil coolers for less than $20 and a little of my time.

The solution works for me since I don't plan on going to the track any time soon and it's not like it's normally very hot in New England.

For those who are truly concerned and can live without oil coolers, it's a very easy DIY mod requiring only one part from Toyota. I posted details in

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f312...-delete-99319/

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post #93 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 10:21 PM
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Loved your post Rob - definitely one of your best. The car is pure aftermarket crack.

BTW I tried to find your resultant weight saving post for removing all 27' of oil cooler hose / front coolers (and adding the Mocal). Can you refresh my memory?

Thanks!
I think it was around 25 lbs once said and done. Definitely a pain pulling the lines out, almost as bad as pulling the AC lines out.

Oh yeah, my AC never would work for more than 5-10 minutes ... talk about dead weight ... I never wanted it in the first place. I suppose it could have been worse, I could have bought a boat ... now that's a true vortex of money.

I suppose when I hit $375,000 "invested" into my Lotus, I'll go look at a Lexus LFA (aka Toyota) and HOPE it can't spank my ass around a track ... especially if the owner drove it to the track ... oh the humility!!

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
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post #94 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 10:43 PM
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Interesting opinions here. The main themes that interest me are a) the ability for owners to use their Lotus as a reliable/safe DD, and b) the ability for Lotus to address issues to ensure their owners can.

For a): Most people expect that new vehicles sold today should be highly reliable and able to be used without frequent pre-drive inspections. That is the expectation that I have for the 2012 Evora S that I have on order. To be blunt, I'm making a crazy, once in a lifetime $90k w/tax purchase here, and I expect that my crazy $90k once in a lifetime purchase will start every day, not require radiator replacements every year, and so on. To Lotus' credit, I have read a lot of reports from Evora owners here, like Squid, who have had their early Evora issues dealt with by Lotus properly. Dany & gang have been talking a lot about reliability recently, and evidence indicates they are trying to do the right things, such as the ~150 improvements for 2012. I don't think my expectation is out of line.

For b): IMO, Lotus is at a disadvantage when it comes to tracking issues with their vehicles, due to the limited number of vehicles sold and the limited resources they can bring to bear on identifying, tracking, investigating, and resolving those issues. Let's face it, a company like Nissan not only has much larger production runs (equating to a larger sample size for statistical analysis of issues), but they have a deeper pool of resources available for investigating & dealing with them. Given the above, there may be issues that lurk longer than they should because they are not identified or prioritized early enough. However - So long as Lotus is committed to quality improvements, and have good processes & people in place to make them happen, I'm optimistic that they will move towards their quality goals.
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post #95 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 11:31 PM
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I'm not terribly concerned about a catastrophic failure that causes me to suddenly lose control and crash.
I Assume you're speaking strictly of the personal consequences.

I was more concerned about motorcycles, busy sidewalks, killing my passenger, etc.

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post #96 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 01:49 AM
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As someone who works with incident reports, recalls, and consumer alerts on a daily basis the phrase immanent hazard comes to mind.

How likely is it that the oil line on a car will fail and what is the likely hood that a failure will result in injury.

Immanent hazard in my mind means that when a driver operates the car they will be injured. Or when a driver gets into his/her car there is a very high chance of injury. For the oil line situation this is not the case in my opinion.

What is the probability that if an oil line fails it will result in an immanent hazard? I would say that an oil line failure would only result in immanent hazard if a number of conditions are met and the chance of these conditions being met are relatively low. If the line goes at high speed or corner will it positively result in injury? I don’t think there is evidence to support this is true.

While I would love to get my oil lines replace free of charge, I do not get as excited about this issue as others.

For those that believe this is an immanent hazard and continue to drive their cars would they not be at fault for driving a car they believe is unsafe? Just at fault as Lotus for any injuries or damage?

I have only had my car for 11 months and have put almost 10,000 miles on it. Odometer now reads 58934 ish now. Luckily I have had not one issue to deal with, but I did purchase the car knowing the possible issues. The reward out weighted the risk.

Just my 2 cents.

So, what you're saying is:

Quote:
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Drives a Prius (clearly knows nothing about cars).

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post #97 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 04:57 AM
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I guess you're repsonding to me?
I guess what it comes down to is, take responsibility or take a risk. Each of us has to make up our own mind.
What you're failing to realize is that the majority of any cars owner, do not visit forums, or read magazines on the cars problems, and just are flat out not aware of things like this. "We"... as in the people on this forum reading this right now are aware of this problem so only we have a choice to fix or not. But that still doesn't make it acceptable on Lotus part.

And worse yet.... I have been on this forum for about 3.5 years maybe and have read a ton of stuff. Before I bought my car I researched and researched and asked all the annoying questions that no one wants to hear over and over... and you know what? Before this post I was never aware of this particular problem. And it has the potential to cause things that are way worse than all the things I chose to accept.
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post #98 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 05:17 AM
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Horrible post with an incredibly self-righteous message. What you consider "normal" activity for a car is not what many owners consider normal. This isn't and shouldn't be like flying a Cessna where you have to spend 30min doing pre-flight checks.

I presume before crossing the street you make sure each time to take a look at the traffic light controller box and make sure everything is working and in order before entering a crosswalk?? Or before washing your clothes, you take apart your machine to check that the motor functions are good and there are no chances of water leakage?

Get real.
Thanks for this. I'm just reading through this thread and realize this is a few pages back, but I had to laugh at that post.

First of all - drive 3 times a month? In a cold weather (can't drive it 40% of the year) climate. Why bother having it?

All that crap just to drive a car to Target? Really? It's a car. Weather/family utility events permitting, I drive my Elise daily in the spring/summer/early fall. My pre drive routine includes:

- put my laptop bag on the floor in the passenger footwell
- plug my iphone into the charger
- shimmy my supple a$$ into my alcantara covered seats
- put on my seat belt
- turn on the car
- find a good tune
- drive

No need to adjust mirrors,etc as I'm the only one who drives it and they are fine from the 8 hours prior that I drove it.

All that madness about belts and hoses and bolts. Are you feckin' kidding me? My wife would shoe my balls if I had a 'toy car' that required that much finicky attention.
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post #99 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 05:21 AM
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Come on guys,

Vangman's right.. Automaker's should never be blamed for manufacture defects that could quite possibly kill you... It's our responsibility as owners.

Remember the Toyota Prius's that had brake issues a few year back? I can bet you my left nut (and possibly my right one) that if these owners used a "pre-drive" check list similiar to Vangman's before entering their vehicles, all of this would have been prevented and the world would be a better place...

Cheers!
Yes, it was found that Toyota was NOT at fault in those cases. Sure you can surmise about 'big auto lobbyists' etc, but it appeared to be a couple of cases of driver error and a bunch of other dopes piling on.

Every time an old lady drives her Buick through a Wendy's, we always hear 'well, I stepped on the brake and it accelerated'. No, it didn't. You are just older than sh*t and you shouldn't be driving. You stepped on the gas. Please go home and read to your grandkids and don't kill my kids with your 4,000 pound weapon.
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post #100 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 07:57 AM
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I guess you're repsonding to me?

The clam has to come off, huh? Wow.

Well, you've told me something I didn't know. I'm still trying to figure out what needs to be done, so that's helpful. Thanks.

Why should you pay for it? I don't think you should. Clearly, Lotus should pay for it. I thought I said something to that effect.

I guess what it comes down to is, take responsibility or take a risk. Each of us has to make up our own mind. And yeah, there's probably not much chance we'd get compensated later if we paid for a fix before Lotus steps up to the plate particularly if the fix involves aftermarket parts. But, realistically there's probably not much chance Lotus will step up. I hope I'm wrong, but I've been down this rat hole before with another vehicle, a Toyota FJ Cruiser, without satisfactory results.

The only thing I remember Jimmy Carter say that made any sense to me was something like "there are things in life that are not fair." I know that's the fact and so I just deal with it when necessary. This may be one of those times.

I bought my car to enjoy it, not worry about it. If I decide there's a sufficient risk and if I can prevent the problem for a price I consider reasonable, I think a preventive fix would probably make more sense to me than taking my chances, whether I get compensated by Lotus later or not. But that's just me and what's reasonable to me might not be reasonable to you.
I wasn't responding to you in particular. The question of who's responsibility it is to address a "Known Problem" was brought up a few times and I was just stating my position.

Deleting the sandwich plate sounds like a relatively easy fix... Thanks Keeper, I might look into that. Can you remove the oil coolers without pulling the clam? Still the oil coolers were there for a reason, even Toyotas with our engines have the heat exchanger... I guess its probably fine for street use, but I just don't want to introduce more problems...

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