NHTSA Investigates 4400 Lotus Elises for Oil Cooler Leaks - Page 6 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #101 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by IamBatman View Post
I wasn't responding to you in particular. The question of who's responsibility it is to address a "Known Problem" was brought up a few times and I was just stating my position.

Deleting the sandwich plate sounds like a relatively easy fix... Thanks Keeper, I might look into that. Can you remove the oil coolers without pulling the clam? Still the oil coolers were there for a reason, even Toyotas with our engines have the heat exchanger... I guess its probably fine for street use, but I just don't want to introduce more problems...
Gotcha...no harm...no foul.

And I agree with your comments about the oil cooler delete option. I read a little about that last night. Probably not a good option for me either. It gets damn hot here in the Sushine State. I see you're in California. It gets hot there too. But it's a dry heat, right?
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post #102 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 08:42 AM
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Sorry to be rough like that but if you think that an issue that can cause you to crash and die is no big deal and people shouldn't whine about that you are an idiot. (this wasn't direct ay anyone in specific)

Yes this is an exotic and yes this is a Lotus, I would expect to have, I don't know... the wind shield wipers maybe not to work bu not an oil cooler that can cause you to crash. No car that costs 50,000 or 1,000,000 should have that issue.
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post #103 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 08:53 AM
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I presume before crossing the street you make sure each time to take a look at the traffic light controller box and make sure everything is working and in order before entering a crosswalk?? Or before washing your clothes, you take apart your machine to check that the motor functions are good and there are no chances of water leakage?
Apparently I am the exception and not the norm. I check what is in my control. I check that my washer hasn't moved and that the lines and power supply are connected correctly and with sufficient slack. I walk my house and my yard looking for anything signs of distress or changes. When it rains I check the gutters to see how they're flowing. I examine my trees to be as sure as I can that they won't fall over in the next storm. I'll never be 100% sure that I've eliminated any chance of anything failing. But a little preventative investigation goes a long way.

And furthermore, you don't have to be a "car guy" to understand how to look at a piece of hardware and make a decision on its status. If your car is in the garage and there is a puddle under it and it hasn't rained in a few days, I'd be concerned. As an engineer, I've never seen a catastrophic, sudden failure. What I've seen are indications that were missed.

At the end of the day you're driving a 2 ton missile that can KILL. As the end user you cannot expect that Lotus or anyone else has thought up all the millions and millions of ways the car can be interacted with. You do the best to analyze the components both individually and as a system to determine a MTBF based on experience. So YOU, the owner are the last line of defense to make a decision, is this car safe enough to drive. If you don't feel that is the case, either, return the car, fix the car, or as we're so good at here in the USA, file a lawsuit. But don't sit and type into this forum that it's the other guy's problem, do something.

I apologize for my bluntness but we need to resolve not blame.

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post #104 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 09:35 AM
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As an owner who has had 2 dual cooler Elises I have had ZERO problems. I don't mean to rub anyone the wrong way here but I have to ask. For those of you who have had failures, what is you pre-drive routine? I know from the get go that I'm going to drive my Elise very differently than my Sorento. Since I drive my Elise 3 to 4 times a month I go through a pre-drive check list to ensure my car is safe to drive. This not only includes checking belts, fluids and pressures, but getting into the crevices with a flash light and looking for leaks, checking the torque or tightening bolts and keeping a log of what's going on. Hoses like this don't just fail.
Vangman, how bout just saving us all the trouble and just posting your pre-drive checklist... (unless mine below covers the jist of it)

Also, have you ever considered forwarding your detailed checklist to the decision makers at Lotus so they can add it to future Owner Manuals?

Step 1: Check and inspect all belts

Step 2: Check and inspect all fluids

Step 3: Check and inspect all pressures

Step 4: Check and inspect all crevices and look for leaks (flash light necessary)

Step 5: Check and inspect the torque or tightening bolts (ensure you have correct tools)

Step 6: Verify wiper blade is in working order

Step 7: You are free to move about the cabin

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post #105 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 09:45 AM
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Apparently I am the exception and not the norm. I check what is in my control. I check that my washer hasn't moved and that the lines and power supply are connected correctly and with sufficient slack. I walk my house and my yard looking for anything signs of distress or changes. When it rains I check the gutters to see how they're flowing. I examine my trees to be as sure as I can that they won't fall over in the next storm. I'll never be 100% sure that I've eliminated any chance of anything failing. But a little preventative investigation goes a long way.

And furthermore, you don't have to be a "car guy" to understand how to look at a piece of hardware and make a decision on its status. If your car is in the garage and there is a puddle under it and it hasn't rained in a few days, I'd be concerned. As an engineer, I've never seen a catastrophic, sudden failure. What I've seen are indications that were missed.

At the end of the day you're driving a 2 ton missile that can KILL. As the end user you cannot expect that Lotus or anyone else has thought up all the millions and millions of ways the car can be interacted with. You do the best to analyze the components both individually and as a system to determine a MTBF based on experience. So YOU, the owner are the last line of defense to make a decision, is this car safe enough to drive. If you don't feel that is the case, either, return the car, fix the car, or as we're so good at here in the USA, file a lawsuit. But don't sit and type into this forum that it's the other guy's problem, do something.

I apologize for my bluntness but we need to resolve not blame.
Ummmm..... Overkill. Yes you are the exception. But the good thing is that no matter what country you were in... any court would rule against a car company that claims a person needs to do that kind of check each time they drive.
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post #106 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 09:50 AM
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I call BS on the checklist claim. I seriously doubt you do a pre-drive tear down of your cars every time you go for a drive. To do a proper check, you need to remove the wheels and wheel liners. Even then, it is not guaranteed that you will find anything before it fails. I find the "holier then thou" attitude of people who claim to do this pretty insulting.

This is not the freaking space shuttle here, I'm not doing a checklist every time I take my Lotus out.

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post #107 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 09:55 AM
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And furthermore, you don't have to be a "car guy" to understand how to look at a piece of hardware and make a decision on its status. If your car is in the garage and there is a puddle under it and it hasn't rained in a few days, I'd be concerned. As an engineer, I've never seen a catastrophic, sudden failure. What I've seen are indications that were missed.

At the end of the day you're driving a 2 ton missile that can KILL. As the end user you cannot expect that Lotus or anyone else has thought up all the millions and millions of ways the car can be interacted with. You do the best to analyze the components both individually and as a system to determine a MTBF based on experience. So YOU, the owner are the last line of defense to make a decision, is this car safe enough to drive. If you don't feel that is the case, either, return the car, fix the car, or as we're so good at here in the USA, file a lawsuit. But don't sit and type into this forum that it's the other guy's problem, do something.

I apologize for my bluntness but we need to resolve not blame.
As an engineer, I have seen catastrophic failure with no apparent problems to the end user. The oil line failures can be equated to that since (my research here) shows that they don't always leak profusely before failing. Some people have had barely any weeping before the line blows off. You don't notice it because of the undertray and the fender liner obscuring your view during a normal pre-drive inspection.
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post #108 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 10:00 AM
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Analyzing MTBF? I'm an engineer as well, but I don't go around analyzing MTBF of every components in my car, that should have been done before the car was even produced... and how can you guess the MTBF when you have random oil lines popping off. I don't think calculating the MTBF is even possible when you have a variable in the mix. Sorry I'm getting riled up... lol.

ps. based on my experience, the MTBF of Toyota engines are 250,000 miles, so we're are all set, right? wrong.

For those of you who doesn't know MTBF means Mean Time Between Failures. Engineers like to use acronyms to impress the commoners. lol

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post #109 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 10:14 AM
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I call BS on the checklist claim. I seriously doubt you do a pre-drive tear down of your cars every time you go for a drive. To do a proper check, you need to remove the wheels and wheel liners. Even then, it is not guaranteed that you will find anything before it fails. I find the "holier then thou" attitude of people who claim to do this pretty insulting.

This is not the freaking space shuttle here, I'm not doing a checklist every time I take my Lotus out.
uh, batman... if Lincoln (the Lincoln MKS to be exact) are making starships what does that make a Lotus?


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post #110 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 11:43 AM
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I purchased a new 2009 Elise in 2009. I've accumulated 25,000 miles in two years. This oil line problem has been discussed on Lotus Talk for the past two years and it does seem scary.

However I've resigned myself to just keep driving and hope for the best.

My (possibly naive) hope is that the problem lies not in the parts themselves but how they were crimped at the factory. Maybe the vast majority of cars will never suffer from this problem.

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post #111 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 11:51 AM
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uh, batman... if Lincoln (the Lincoln MKS to be exact) are making starships what does that make a Lotus?

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post #112 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 11:58 AM
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As an engineer, I have seen catastrophic failure with no apparent problems to the end user.
+1

Just as an example; I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has had a CV joint give out without any tears in the boot or any prior noise.

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post #113 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 11:59 AM
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At the end of the day you're driving a 2 ton missile that can KILL. As the end user you cannot expect that Lotus or anyone else has thought up all the millions and millions of ways the car can be interacted with.
Im sorry no wonder you feel the need to check so many things on your car. Your Lotus is about 1 ton too heavy. There must be miles and miles of hoses and belts you need to check!

Are you sure youre an engineer? You dont even know the weight of your car.

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post #114 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 12:06 PM
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Analyzing MTBF?
... yeah I didn't even want to go there

Bringing up MTBF was ironic because that's one way to help determine weak points. My guess is that the oil lines were a significant effort on Lotus' part since they are components that weren't previously analyzed by Toyota. Lotus probably even has a reliability analysis on these exact parts...
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post #115 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 12:13 PM
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Wake me up when the recall is issued. I seriously doubt this would bankrup LCUSA, they've already have other recalls like a/c systems that didn't work on 95% of the cars etc. If someone dies and they get sued then they'll REALLY be out of business.

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post #116 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 02:48 PM
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I apologize for my bluntness but we need to resolve not blame.
There are plenty of threads on how to deal with the problem, but I still talk to people who don't know this issue exists.

If Lotus has known about this problem, you don't think they have an obligation to notify all owners of the following:

There is the possibility of sudden oil line failure than cannot be inspected for nor predicted (via MTBF, e.g.) . . .

I'm an engineer too, and I was required to take ethics in engineering courses.

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post #117 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 03:28 PM
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I like free fixes and hopefully they'll take care of this to alleviate me of my worries on this issue. Maybe they'll fix my cam next time it needs replacing too . . .

BTW, I'm not an engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
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post #118 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 04:20 PM
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That was interesting until he shifted it into "D" and drove away. Damn automatics...

I actually need to inspect my oil lines, but I am now a little hesitant to drive it, based on how horrible it would be if I blew a front oil cooler line driving Hwy 17 from Santa Cruz to Silicon Valley. This is not straight line road, but a very curvy (and fun) mountain pass road that I drive to work...

May just have to get it fixed instead of waiting for a Lotus recall...
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post #119 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 06:10 PM
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post #120 of 161 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 06:44 PM
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The Government is going to look at the data and if they determine that this is a safety issue then those that did the oil line fix will be reimbursed.

Man up and fix the problem if your worried about it instead of posting hysterically.

I would think that the only people who have to worry about crashing are those that take their car to the track. If you race or drive above the legal speed limit then get it fixed now.
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