'95 Audi S6 Timing belt - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-01-2015, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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'95 Audi S6 Timing belt

I have a question for Audi owners.

Sent my beloved '95 S6 Avant for a routine timing belt replacement and of course doing the water pump which is driven by the belt.

I get a phone call they cannot break the crank pulley bolt loose and it's a fight. The garage asked me if 'red loctite' was used... I do not know. The timing belt was replaced by the original dealer whom purchased the car from - I have all of the service records on her since day 1.

Here is where it get's deep. They tell me the crank pulley bolt will not come out. They fight it getting it loose but bent a valve in the process. I've done many belts on all different cars and never encountered this problem.

My quesstion is could they have off set the timing a tooth to bend the valve and giving me some sort of 'Story'? The owner has had little contact with me and keeping me updated and they pulled the head without my permission.

How would someone go about this situation? I go not know if he is charging me for the extra expense they caused or if it was a real problem. Am I expected to 'pick up' the cost of the damage they did to my motor?

Any help to figure this out would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,
Robert
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-01-2015, 04:38 PM
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Bent valve any any other damage they caused is their fault. Sounds like they either cut the belt and turned the crank while trying to remove the crank pulley bolt... or they spun it so hard they slipped the belt... Either are totally their fault.

I've had a stubborn crank pulley bolt on an older Acura that required a 600ft-lb electric impact driver for a solid half hour (no visible rust), I did not damage the valves...

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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-01-2015, 07:10 PM
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From my armchair quarterback position it sounds like it is 100% their fault. No way could they have bent a valve without turning the engine over without a timing belt on it. Like @Vulcan Gray said, they probably cut the belt and turned the engine over into a valve and then probably used the valve to hold the piston and crank to try and undo the bolt.

Good luck getting them to fix it.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-03-2015, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Advise needed

I took my 1995 Audi S6 in for a timing belt change.

The shop owner calls me and said they could not break the harmonic balancer crank bolt free.

I confirmed they did not use the correct holding tool, the one they used gave it about a 1/4" turn of slop. Now of course at TDC all of the valves on that cylinder should be closed however others will be open on a 5 pot.

Somehow trying to break the crank bolt they bent a valve or more along the way. They sheared the dog on the timing belt crank pulley trying to break the bolt loose. They are telling me the bolt must have been sealed with 271 Red Loctite.

I've known this car since day one from the original owner. It was always serviced by the dealer, the timing belt replacement was done by the dealer the first time.

This job is being done by an independent shop and not a dealer.

I just spent a lot of money getting my Esprit back on the road. Am I expected to pay for the screw up these guys did on my motor? Would appreciate opinions



Robert
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-03-2015, 11:01 AM
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IMO:

In theory, since you confirmed that they did not use the correct tool/procedure, they should pay for their mistake. (Got proof, aside from 'hearsay'?)

In practice, I've had shops tell me "you have to pay us for our time". Even with them 'learning' on your car. So, I don't think they would want to bear the entire cost of the repair.

If the bill is substantial, you may well want to consult a lawyer. But that's more cost for you...


Good Luck. I hate it when these things happen.

Atwell Haines
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Succasunna, NJ USA


"Not all angels have wings." - Turbo R
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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When I spoke with the shop owner he actually accused me of putting Loctite on the bolt and causing this problem. I asked him if the crank jumped time from the belt and he told me none of the marks had changed.

If the marks had not changed and it was set up correctly, there should not be any bent valves. I don't know how tight those valves are to the pistons but this is a high performance motor and using the wrong holding tool allowing the 1/4" slop may have been enough.

What I don't get is he told me it was a #1 intake valve that got bent. If the engine is at TDC all valves on that cylinder should be closed.

I will be paying this bill with my credit card so if the shop charges me one dime for any of this mess I will file a dispute. My CC company is like a Pitbull with a steak bone when someone tries to screw over their customer.

In my 25 years of wrenching if a customers car was damaged the shop ate the extra repair cost. I have changed hundreds of interference timing belts and this never happened to me.

Thank you for your time reading my post and I'll keep you updated forbid this should happen to you.

Robert
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Type82 View Post
What I don't get is he told me it was a #1 intake valve that got bent. If the engine is at TDC all valves on that cylinder should be closed.
Being a 4-stroke engine there are two TDC episodes in the full cycle. They likely had TDC between exhaust and intake strokes (the wrong TDC) which would get you bent valves in cylinder #1.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 06:10 PM
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Hi Guys
My name is Dominic and I am the owner of the shop in the above saga. Robert told me he was consulting with experts and i went looking and found this forum. I am not here to sling dirt and cause trouble but as I have spent a lot of time explaining what happened to Robert, and now i see that he has chosen to give you guys his version of the "facts" i feel that it is fair and likely more useful in the long run to present the actual details so there's no confusion or judgement without some more insight. Let me also add that, if i was Robert, I would be upset too but unfortunately bad things happen and in this case- it wasn't all us, as is presented in the above scenario.
Robert brought us a nice but old and a pretty typical of New England 1995 Audi S6, that is with some rust and age showing, and approx 180,000 miles. The service requested was timing belt and water pump and additionally crank and cam seals.
My tech proceeded with the repair with an Audi tool set which he has used for this job many times, and to clarify, the crank counter hold tool is technically not the correct part # for the application but serves just as well by maintaining exactly the same grip in the boss in the harmonic balancer as the correct part # tool. (Paul the tech on this job is also a dealer trained certified Audi Master Tech and worked at the same dealer that this car was delivered from.)
He also used the correct crank bolt tool which is designed for use with a 1/2 inch breaker bar as leverage.
Now- add that the torque on the crank bolt on the AAN engine is set at 332ft/lb and was last installed sometime around 15 years ago with most likely loctite as evidenced by the struggle we had to remove it. We fought to remove the bolt- paul and i both to no avail. We heated the bolt moderately hoping to loosen any loctite but couldn't go crazy as it a rubber molded harmonic balancer. We succeeded in getting the bolt to turn approx 90 degrees and at this point I decided to call the customer before the bolt breaks and leave him a message. We wanted to keep him abreast of the situation and hear his recommendation as to how to proceed and ask if he had any knowledge of previous repairs. Meanwhile- we double checked the timing marks and all appeared to be perfectly in time, we attempted to drive the car out as were waiting hear from the customer and now found that the car spins over with no compression.
So what happened-
We get in touch with Robert and inform him that we can't get the bolt out and that it must have jumped time somehow and that as of now we can't confirm what has happened yet until we remove the crank pulley and that it may be a lose lose situation if the bolt breaks off. He advises that we try a 3/4 inch impact gun and we agree that heat will have to be used but that we are in a bit of a no win situation so damaging the balancer is not a huge deal. We tore the front of the car down more incl. the radiator and bumper to allow better access and borrowed a 3/4 impact gun and with A LOT more heat and power the bolt came out, and now we get our answer, broken key between the timing gear and crank shaft.
So, here we have the explanation for why we have a belt which still shows in time on the cam and the crank, yet our motor is not in time. When the bolt rotated the 90 degrees, it also rotated the crank 90 degrees, but broke the key and left the tool and the harmonic balancer and the crank shaft gear behind -perfectly in time. The detail about the crank tool being slightly incorrect is not relevant to why this occurred- the even more right tool would have achieved the same bad end.
Here's some more to add:
I haven't made any suggestion to Robert about who's paying for what and how much but I don't feel that it is a cut and dried case of " mechanics fault". I have tried to point out what happened here to Robert and even with his 25 years of experience he can't seem to wrap his head around the injustice of this. Honestly I can't quite wrap my head around the forces involved in rotating the crank internally, snapping the key off and not having the bolt loosen either but it happened and it wasn't a result of negligence on our part. Robert's quote of me asking him if he loctited the bolt was out of frustration at the odds of a 25 year veteran mechanic supposedly bringing us a comparatively straight forward job, that went bad and now he's pointing the finger at me and claiming to not understand what happened. I'm not suggesting he actually loctited the bolt, but he may have attempted the repair himself and when it wasn't going well, opted to bring it to us, and now we are holding the bag, hands are dirty and the gun is smoking.
We performed a leak down test and found that there is air leakage into the intake, we removed the cylinder head and confirmed bent intake valves. When presented to Robert he agreed that at this juncture, we should probably do a valve job and check the guides and do valve stem oil seals. He seemed agreeable to the idea of doing sensible things now that we are in this deep.
I am more than willing to help and certainly eager to please but this goes beyond what's reasonable to expect us to be responsible for so a compromise and ownership of your 20 year old car and its problems are in order here.
There are many more details in this story mostly regarding Roberts attitude and accusations, some of which are outlined in the above messages, which i am not going to address because it won't advance this in a favorable direction- let's not turn this into a big deal, the details are here now for you to peruse and we'll carry on. Your car will be back to you ship shape soon enough and then we will sort it out, like men, and move on.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-05-2015, 10:08 AM
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I use red Loctite often, on various sizes of bolts, and have not had any trouble removing it later (without heat). Green Loctite can be much more difficult, but still no trouble.

The sheared key on a 1995 S6 does seem to be a thing.
[s-cars] sheared crankshaft-gear key






I have seen the magnesium-chloride, that they use here instead of salt, cause a type of corrosion, especially on cadmium plated fasteners, that is nearly impossible to break free...

In fact a friend broke a wheel lug key on his mini, so he took it to the dealer. The dealer chiseled away at the hardened lug bolt for several hours and the finally wanted to cut his wheel in half. Well, the wheel was no longer made, so he refused, and they tried to charge him for their time at damaging his wheel, and the hadn't removed the bolt...

He brought it to me, and I was able to use a carbide grinder to remove the bolt head without damaging the wheel further, and then the rest of the bolt just spun out by hand...


Lets put it this way. Suppose a shop is trying really hard to loosen an axle nut and they slip and put a huge dent in the fender. Who would be responsible to pay to repair that damage?

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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-18-2015, 01:31 PM
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I'm not sure how the above analogy is pertinent to this situation? This was not question of judgment but rather the unavoidable given that the procedures used were correct.
The above pictures are not actually of this engine either.

Look at this link to get familiar with the loctite threadlock products and you'll see that red is the highest strength and that green is for an entirely different application altogether.
The Difference Between Red, Blue, Green and Purple Threadlockers

I spoke to a nearby local Audi Guru and former chairman of the NEQ Audi Club and he has come across this situation several times and that most often the damage to this pulley/key is done by the previous installer. In his opinion the huge mass and inertia of the harmonic balancer and crankgear combined, when the crank bolt is tightened with an air gun puts too much hammering action on the key thereby cracking it. It clearly held just fine until it was rotated the other direction and the force was enough to finish it off.
just to clarify, regardless of the fact that we were not negligent and do not believe that the responsibility is ours, we extended a 50% discount on the valve job including parts and labor and machine work. The car was returned in much better shape than it was brought to us with all new valves, a planed head, new head gasket and hardware. This whole deal cost me plenty and I feel that we were more than fair in this unfortunate situation.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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Crank bolt, trying to post some pictures however the upload is not coming up.

First the shop owner blames Loctite was used on this bolt... no signs of Loctite in the threads. The shop owner slandered me saying I tried to do the job myself, botched it and sent it to them. Now he blames the previous installer who was Hoffman Audi located in Connecticut.

My question is ,,, if you did not do anything wrong why are you pointing fingers at others?

I have spoken with many repair shops / dealers and told if this had happened in their shop they would be held accountable for the damage.

Drop off a fine running car for a routine maintenance job, they break my motor and have the balls to make me pay over 1k for their mistake not accounting my car being down for three weeks with no offer of a loaner or rental to get back and forth to my job.

I had to pay the shop owner in cash or a cashiers check. He would not accept my credit card because I said in another post I would dispute the charge. On another note, upon replacing the timing belt and water pump which should be included with the head job he gave me a separate bill for $700. parts and labor for the original job.

This car went in for a $700. job and it cost me another $1.035 on top of that for their mistake to get my car back. I am not slandering you Dom, just setting the fact straight on how your business treated me and 'your bad attitude'. That comes from arguing with me over not signing the repair bill... you would not accept that and fought me over it. My wife sent her car into a local shop and was never asked to sign anything regarding the repair.

Next time I see you Dominick it will be in court. I sent you an email... no reply. I am not bluffing. Massachusetts law states while my vehicle is in your care you are responsible for what ever happens to it.

Last edited by Type82; 11-13-2015 at 06:09 PM.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-13-2015, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Also to set the record straight, your not in the correct car forum. These are not my 'experts' they are my friends. This should be you right now...
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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I appreciate everyone's input on this terrible dilemma. A letter comes in the mail, he is counter-suing me for the $998.59 he 'so' called ate for the repair. My court filing paper was plain and simple. Attempting the service they bent my valves, I was required to pay $1,034.84 for the cylinder head repair plus $700.50 for the original job requested which those two jobs are tied together. So I basically paid twice for the same service. If I refused to pay my vehicle would not be released. He denied everything I said except that they did work on the car.

After a lot of time and research my answer to what happened was correct. I went to the dealer and they were kind enough to print out the factory procedure and it said to use pulley holding tool VAG 3256. They used tool VAG 2084 which engages the boss in the pulley incorrectly which explains why the crank moved 90 degrees.

My friend from across the pond who is very experienced with Audi cars told me the 2084 tool is not correct for the AAN 20 valve motor. He said: " The VAG 2084 is for all 5 cylinder engines EXCEPT AAN, ABY, and ADU motors. "

I went to the shop and asked to see the holding tool that was used. He showed me the 2084, I placed it on the pulley boss and there was a 1/4 " of slop rotating the tool back and forth on it. It should be a tight fit on the boss with no play. He tells me it's the right tool because it say's made in Germany. Now I'm standing there with a facepalm. I would expect a young kid to tell me that but a seasoned factory trained Audi mechanic?

Reminds me of the old battery commercial were the two young boy's are trying to drive square blocks through round holes then become mechanics. A bigger hammer will always do the job.

So we go to court...

Our case is called to the bench. I ask the Magistrate to have a mediator for the case. Dominic arrogantly asks the Judge "What if I don't want to mediate?" He had a nasty tone with the Judge, the Judge explained to him it would be the right thing to do.

So now we go into a private room to discuss the case. I show the mediator my evidence, his LT confession of not using the correct tool for the job. Also added if they had such a difficult time trying to remove a bolt that could 'break' {this bolt is hardened and at least 1/2" to 3/4" diameter} I highly doubt it would snap.... were not talking an M8 here.

He goes on to tell her I advised them to use a 3/4" impact gun. Question: If I'm paying $90.00 an hour why is a repair shop asking me how to fix my car and then they have to 'borrow' one? I spent 25 years of my life doing this crap for a living and that is one question you do not ask your customer.

So she sends me out of the room to speak with him personally which she advised before the start she may do. I'm standing in the hallway for what felt like an hour. Then she sends him out and calls me in. She starts grilling me questions. I answered her questions truthfully because this is a court matter and I am the victim here.

She calls Dominic back in.... she tells us she cannot decide who is right and who is wrong it will have to go before the Magistrate. Now I'm left with a 50/50 choice, risk losing a thousand to gain a thousand? I'm wondering how he bamboozled her... then I remember... She told me he showed her his mechanics factory trained certification papers and she bought that. If he is factory trained Audi mechanic how could he make this mistake?

Now I'm between a rock and a hard place. I was wronged by bad workmanship however I could end up paying this crook another grand for the cost he said he paid which we know is total BS. I make the offer if he is willing to dismiss the counter suit I would drop it.

The Judge asks him if he is willing to do that. Again he responds to the Judge with an arrogant attitude " What about the judgement?"

The Judge replied it would not benefit him or his business." I won. Even though I decided to forfeit, if he could bamboozle the mediator and used his power of experience going to court with the Judge I decided not to risk losing another grand for the shops incompetence to try and get my grand back.

In the end the Judge gave him a 'slap in the face'. Something that did not occur to me... talking about it with my Supervisor today he said " The Judge has probably seen his face before."

In Western MA if you see a repair shop in Great Barrington on Route 7 with red barns stay away!

Sorry for the long read however I feel this may help someone who ends up in this situation.

Last edited by sleekgt; 10-29-2016 at 07:23 AM. Reason: correction
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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I heard this noise like marbles rolling inside the motor at 22k after this service. The water pump bearings are gone and the pulley is cutting through the timing belt cover.

Now I am paying the dealer another one thousand dollars to have this job done again because either they used cheap Chinese parts or over set the timing belt tension.

Aside from the great reviews Autobahn Service in Great Barrington, MA has received I would strongly suggest to stay away.

Last edited by Type82; 11-15-2017 at 05:48 PM.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-16-2017, 09:18 AM
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I am probably the best audi mechanic on this forum and was trained by the best shop in new york. Hands down. Run by an old man By the name of James Carmody. Look up Foreign and sports car Service after you read my message. It breaks my heart that I didnt see this day 1.

Just a snim form instructables as I havent done one in 7 years on an s6 :
ow to remove the crank pulley. NOTICE!!! Remove the four 6mm allen blots from the pulley FIRST. If you remove the center bolt and then try to pull the pulley off, you may end up pulling the inner crank drive for the timing belt. So remove the four 6mm allen bolts, then the center bolt, which is 27mm. You may need to put the car into gear to keep the motor from turning (if you have the car in the air), if so, put it in 5th gear to keep the motor from turning over.

But wait theres more.... If its a real shop theres tools to lock that cam up to prevent things like ****ed valves. Also differential heating is the best way to remove that bolt not horsing the hell out of it... Its really too bad.

You need your money back and a proper machine shop to check that motor over. Those cars are getting rarer by the month and it actually makes me real sad that that shop did what they did. You dont have to take my word for it. Call up Jim tell him Robert sent you. Hes getting older than the hill but should be able to point you in the right direction if you have any questions. What a ****show and I am sorry.
If I was in the US I would take the stand for you as I worked on em for seven years. What a load.
Actually I am going to cut this here and PM you.

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