Considering Tesla Model X - thoughts? - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-03-2019, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
what a ridiculous statement

unless you are a traveling salesman you will rarely push the limit in the car

what percentage of people drive from Boston to NY every week?

My Exige can barely get to NY on a tank

Range is simply not a problem

the time to charge is a problem, but again most people, most of the time will never visit a charging station
I don't really have anything against electric cars, but I do see this argument above quite frequently, and I would say it's quite a bit more than you might think based on my own experience. Having had children who played multiple high school and college sports, and seeing many hundreds of people every week for months doing the same thing (think of how many sports teams an average college/university has), it's actually quite common to drive hundreds of miles every week for pleasure, especially between the Bos-Wash corridor, where there are literally dozens (hundreds?) of colleges and universities. We frequently drove 300-400 miles one way, for many months during the school year, for years, and many others did this, with maybe a 10 minute stop (an Audi Q7 easily goes over 500 miles between fill-ups). This is by no means an argument for or against your personal vehicle choice, but to say it doesn't matter doesn't fit my experience.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-03-2019, 07:36 PM
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I'm sorry but driving 300 miles one way often is simply not something that falls into the category of common and normal. Yes people do it, but most people drive 15k or less a year, and most people fly if they need to do that. 300 miles, most people stop. Now you are parsing the difference between a 10 minute stop and what 45 minute

hundreds of miles a week recreational , sure, quite reasonable, and quite doable with electric

I brought my daughter to summer camp in central NH in the Exige, didn't feel like driving the truck, and it made me think of whether I could do it in a Tesla, and the numbers worked, I probably would have had to stop on the way back, but not for even a full charge

If this is your lifestyle, sure, you might make a different decision, but the wholesale dismissal of a technology is foolish

I did Boston to Atlanta and back twice in the 90s, for LOG, that might have been a drag in an EV, but I was younger then and drove straight through on several legs, not what I would do now


This is a political argument, and one that is, again, foolishness

An Elise is useless because it doesn't have 4 seats, so, worthless
A 1 ton dually diesel truck cannot park in downtown boston so it is worthless

A person who drives 300 miles to see their kid at college might not buy a Tesla, or an Elise, as their only vehicle, but they might also back off their kid.....
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 06:45 AM
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My two cents.

My Florida friends say that driving from Florida to Toronto in their Tesla is no big deal. But they do plan their stops ahead of time based upon charging stations and they usually pick hotels that guarantee charging.

So it sounds like if you are big on EVs and want to use them for extended travel you can, but you need to plan ahead somewhat.

For the road trips my wife and I go on, I am happy with traditional gas cars. We sometimes do 10 hour drives without planning very detailed routes.
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
what a ridiculous statement

unless you are a traveling salesman you will rarely push the limit in the car

what percentage of people drive from Boston to NY every week?

My Exige can barely get to NY on a tank

Range is simply not a problem

the time to charge is a problem, but again most people, most of the time will never visit a charging station
Written like an East coast native.

The US (he wrote, paraphrasing the Hitch hiker's guide to the Galaxy) is big. Really big. You might think it's a long way down the road to New York, but that's just peanuts to the rest of the US.

My parents lived in western Kentucky for 20 years 11 miles outside of a university town. Now they live in San Antonio Texas. Both places involve long distance (>100 mi) road trips at high speed (65+ MPH) as a normal way of getting around.

In KY, my mother would rack up 120 miles a day 2-3 times/week in the car easily - it was 11 miles one way to town, so a grocery run with a second stop in town was 30+ miles right there. Every month or so one of my parents would have a medical appointment the next state over. That was a 300 mile day. Nope, no EV charger at the hospital. My father taught school the next county over - 60 miles away at an average speed of 50 MPH. No, there isn't an EV charging space in front of the school. I suppose an EV would have worked for him sometimes for that commute...if he never needed to stop by a store on the way home.

Now if there were supercharger stations on every corner in the Midwest like there are gas stations, this wouldn't be a problem. There aren't. And there aren't going to be any time soon, either, because the population density is too low.

You know those vast fastnesses of the West that you see in movies? People actually live there. Sometimes at densities as low as two people per square mile, but they're there. There's no mass transit. No close by airport (the closest airport with scheduled service to my parents' house was 40 miles away. No EV chargers there. Frequently, they'd end up driving to Nashville, TN to catch a plane. 120 miles each way on the superslab. No EV chargers there, either. I suppose you could drive around Nashville to find a charging station on the way to or from the airport...or you could just gas up once at one of the dozens of gas stations along the way.

Yes, if you're wealthy enough and have the parking space, it's easy buy a $80k+ EV that you can only use four out of five days because on that fifth day you'll be driving beyond its range limit. Uber doesn't go there. You can't ride your ebike down to the MBTA station, either.

An EV is not a practical proposition for everybody in the USA. Maybe someday. Today is not that day. There's a reason the Chevy Volt comes with an ICE range extender, and a reason why Toyota has sold a whole lot more Priuses than Tesla has sold cars.

What did my folks end up with to deal with the reality of going 150+ miles at high speeds on a regular basis and living 13 miles from the nearest gas station? A Jetta TDI. 700 miles a tankful makes a lot of sense in the Midwest.
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-04-2019, 09:40 AM
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I'm sorry but driving 300 miles one way often is simply not something that falls into the category of common and normal. Yes people do it, but most people drive 15k or less a year, and most people fly if they need to do that. 300 miles, most people stop. Now you are parsing the difference between a 10 minute stop and what 45 minute

hundreds of miles a week recreational , sure, quite reasonable, and quite doable with electric

I brought my daughter to summer camp in central NH in the Exige, didn't feel like driving the truck, and it made me think of whether I could do it in a Tesla, and the numbers worked, I probably would have had to stop on the way back, but not for even a full charge

If this is your lifestyle, sure, you might make a different decision, but the wholesale dismissal of a technology is foolish

I did Boston to Atlanta and back twice in the 90s, for LOG, that might have been a drag in an EV, but I was younger then and drove straight through on several legs, not what I would do now


This is a political argument, and one that is, again, foolishness

An Elise is useless because it doesn't have 4 seats, so, worthless
A 1 ton dually diesel truck cannot park in downtown boston so it is worthless

A person who drives 300 miles to see their kid at college might not buy a Tesla, or an Elise, as their only vehicle, but they might also back off their kid.....
I didn't dismiss the technology, nor label your, or any, position foolish. Nor would I poke fun at anyone who values seeing their child engage in sporting events, along with hundreds (thousands) of other parents. I simply stated that I knew a lot of people, including myself, and knew of many more, who think nothing of driving several hundred miles without stopping. On that basis, I felt that saying such things were very rare wasn't my experience.

Maybe I just like to drive, but maybe Tesla owners don't?
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
what a ridiculous statement

unless you are a traveling salesman you will rarely push the limit in the car

what percentage of people drive from Boston to NY every week?

My Exige can barely get to NY on a tank

Range is simply not a problem

the time to charge is a problem, but again most people, most of the time will never visit a charging station

I disagree completely with you. Every other week in the winter, I drive 375 miles from CT to ME to ski. It is a routine non stop trip. It will not happen in a Tesla without a stop. PERIOD. If I could make it 1 way, non-stop, I could consider a charger at the house or just plug in because vehicle sits overnight 99% of the time after the trip. I do this 20+ times/yr. So a $70-140K car that is useless for this purpose is a TOTAL WASTE to me. Range is the entire problem for me.Not to mention, I live on side of a mountain that can be VERY ugly in winter

I also would be using that VERY expensive vehicle for my roadtrips down the East Coast from CT to Florida to visit family. I may stop for gas every 500 miles and during one of those stops I'd take 30-45 minutes to eat but having to spend 45 minutes at a Supercharger every ~300 miles will make an 18 hour drive turn into a a 20-21 hour drive. That, to me, is not a technology that improves my life. I don't drive a 15mpg pickm up truck either.
My daily commute is 11 miles each way so screw the millenials with my burning a gallon of gas /day. Maybe they shouldn't waste heating all that hot water at Starbucks or Dunkin. (multiply by millions so it adds up). Now that is a ridiculous statement until you really think about the millenials and their forms of fast this, shipping that etc waste. Innocuous enough to probably have doubled or tripled the number of trucks on the roads delivering all their Amazon products for example!!

One of 2 things will need to happen before I make the jump from IC motors. Range is 500 miles or we finally get quick battery change stations that only take 5 minutes like filling up. Either that or we finally figure out how to "beem me up Scotty" for real and don't need to drive anymore!!! I do not fulfill the commuter needs of the masses....that should really be using mass transportation anyway if they REALLY cared about the planet btw.

Finally, my bladder has a 500 mile range because I rarely use the cupholders in any vehicle.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 08:39 AM
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One of 2 things will need to happen before I make the jump from IC motors.
Tesla owner here. I totally get your range issues and agree Tesla is not for everyone yet. The charging network is not there and honestly many are so accustomed to the gas station approach that it will be hard to change.

That said, your sig seems to show you enjoy fun, performance cars. My Tesla 3 is insanely fun to drive! Motor-wise there is no comparison, it smokes the Elise in every regard. It's a totally different experience and IMO it is way better. Like driving the slot cars you played with as a kid -- instant on and very quick. Considering that the 3 has about the same range as two of your fun cars, I would not rule it out just based on range.

I'm in San Diego and am willing to give any LT member a test drive, just drop me a PM.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 09:27 AM
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YOu are totally correct, Greenwich ct to JAy peak is 340 miles, and you will have to stop in any Tesla to charge.

Here is the thing

Not one car in my household will make that run without the fuel light coming on
Exige
Xterra
Plus 2
Subaru Forester

That means I am stopping, if only to stay married.

So we are talking about the difference on that trip how many minutes difference between electric and gas? With any of the the extended range Teslas you are really only topping off to get you to the resort[which has a charging station]

So, really, you are consigning an entire range of vehicles as useless because of 10 minutes or because you do not want get out and plug it in when you get there?

As to your Florida trip yes, it would take longer, but i cannot see how it would be more expensive. In fact, a few beer bag calculations tell me it might be worse timewise than you think

But then again, in time per year, you will otherwise never stop at a gas station, and unless you really enjoy the banter with the middle eastern guy who runs the place, I call it time saved.

No one is going to force you to go electric, and no one is saying they are for every single person in every situation

but electric cars are not 'commuter cars' by any stretch





Me, personally, I think serial hybrids are the smart answer

AS time goes on, the engine will shrink till it is vestigial. A tiny range extender generator with a 1 gallon tank. GPS enabled so it knows not to bother firing it up when you are 500 yards from home, or to disable it in the city for smog reasons, whatever

Eventually, the generators will disappear, because the batteries will be cheaper than the generator.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 10:15 AM
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Tesla owner here. I totally get your range issues and agree Tesla is not for everyone yet. The charging network is not there and honestly many are so accustomed to the gas station approach that it will be hard to change.

That said, your sig seems to show you enjoy fun, performance cars. My Tesla 3 is insanely fun to drive! Motor-wise there is no comparison, it smokes the Elise in every regard. It's a totally different experience and IMO it is way better. Like driving the slot cars you played with as a kid -- instant on and very quick. Considering that the 3 has about the same range as two of your fun cars, I would not rule it out just based on range.

I'm in San Diego and am willing to give any LT member a test drive, just drop me a PM.
First, I don't know that it smokes an Elise in every regard. I'd put my money on an Elise in autocross, and perhaps a road race lasting more than 5 laps.

AND...I'm 64 and I still play with slot cars... interstatehomeslotracingclub.yuku.com

But I get your point. To the OP, it's wholly your call. Does the range, and practicality of recharging fit your driving habits/needs? Yes? Then it makes no difference how anyone else would use it. At that point you're evaluating it from what you want in a car: space, comfort, engineering, handling/performance, etc. If it checks those boxes, AND you can live with the service availabilty, what else is there?

I work at a hospital, and in the parking garage on any given day I bet there are a dozen, maybe a dozen and a half Teslas. Likely physician owned. My typical drive home, I'll see another half dozen, OTHER than those on campus. I was at a 4 way stop out in the middle of nowhere two years ago, and at the other three stop signs were Teslas.

My wife is office manager at a higher end body shop and auto repair shop. They have several Tesla customers, but not for major body work or certainly not mechanical work. They do a lot of paint touch ups. Apparently Tesla owners are pretty fastidious about keeping the cars looking pristine.

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 10:44 AM
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2 yrs in a row, the smart a$$ in his 100D Model S didn't make it 2 laps at WGI before it went into permanent limp mode for the rest of the day. Long way to go before a Tesla can lap like Formula E which I do watch!!

Your wife (or significant other...trying to be politically correct) needs to grow a bladder if they can't go 5 hrs without a pee stop.

They are luxury commuter cars if they can't tour without significant down time IMHO. It is getting better but.... I may actually get a hybrid someday, but as a Lotus owner, the additional weight sucks the fun out of everything I have ever driven in that regard. The Tesla Model 3 is HEAVY, compare it to a Charger or Challenger heavy. Finally, not loving the look of any Tesla besides the Model S. I am very happy with a 30mpg Stelvio that is undeniably gorgeous. When I want true luxury, 20mpg out of a Range Rover sport at 80mph was unheard of till 5 years ago. The Model X stands for no thank you to me. I am actually quite happy that Musk is out as I've always thought of him as an arrogant prick....smart but quite unlikable. Maybe over the next 5 years, electrics will exit their stage of infancy, like hybrids did after their first decade. So yes, for now, they aren't even a consideration. Everytime I see a Prius, I thank them for giving me more GAS to burn.
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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 10:56 AM
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Your wife (or significant other...trying to be politically correct) needs to grow a bladder if they can't go 5 hrs without a pee stop.
Once you pass a certain age, the old adage "never pass up a chance to go to the bathroom" kicks in.

Owned, loved, enjoyed, and now gone:
1969 Europa S2 Blue
1970 Europa S2 White
1974 Europa Twin Cam Blue
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2005 Elise Starlight Black
2005 Elise Saffron Yellow
2005 Elise Ardent Red
2006 Exige Graphite Grey
2007 Exige Canyon Red

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1970 Datsun 510
1984 Honda CRX Si
1984 Pontiac Fiero
2004 Chrysler Crossfire
2009 Pontiac Solstice Coupe
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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
YOu are totally correct, Greenwich ct to JAy peak is 340 miles, and you will have to stop in any Tesla to charge.

Here is the thing

Not one car in my household will make that run without the fuel light coming on
Exige
Xterra
Plus 2
Subaru Forester

That means I am stopping, if only to stay married.

So we are talking about the difference on that trip how many minutes difference between electric and gas? With any of the the extended range Teslas you are really only topping off to get you to the resort[which has a charging station]

So, really, you are consigning an entire range of vehicles as useless because of 10 minutes or because you do not want get out and plug it in when you get there?

As to your Florida trip yes, it would take longer, but i cannot see how it would be more expensive. In fact, a few beer bag calculations tell me it might be worse timewise than you think

But then again, in time per year, you will otherwise never stop at a gas station, and unless you really enjoy the banter with the middle eastern guy who runs the place, I call it time saved.

No one is going to force you to go electric, and no one is saying they are for every single person in every situation

but electric cars are not 'commuter cars' by any stretch





Me, personally, I think serial hybrids are the smart answer

AS time goes on, the engine will shrink till it is vestigial. A tiny range extender generator with a 1 gallon tank. GPS enabled so it knows not to bother firing it up when you are 500 yards from home, or to disable it in the city for smog reasons, whatever

Eventually, the generators will disappear, because the batteries will be cheaper than the generator.
Subarus notoriously undertank their rides. What is a +2?? Guess they would all have been knocked off my list except the Exige which will get damn close to 300 miles if you behave. I used to drive 286 miles to WGI every year with my Elise and not see a fuel light till I was in the Glen township every time. Fuel light always means you've got 50+ miles to go and I know my vehicle ranges down to tank size. Expense was never mentioned except for fact that Teslas are VERY pricey especially when you consider their horrendous resale value. Again, that will change over time but for now, a Jaguar is a better financial purchase or most any other vehicle on the market for that matter.. There is more to a vehicle than its 0-60 time. Maybe if the arrogance of Musk concentrated more on range than explosive acceleration, we wouldn't be having this conversation but his arrogance showed an insecurity in his thought patterns. If we were talking a 6 second car with a 400-500 mile range it would have sold a lot more cars IMHO. That would put them on my radar big time.
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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-15-2019, 02:05 PM
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The Tesla Model 3 is HEAVY, compare it to a Charger or Challenger heavy.
Not sure how you are doing a comparison if you have not driven the 3. It carries the weight very well. Chargers and Challengers don't belong in the same sentence with the 3. All they share is that they are all made in the USA.

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20mpg out of a Range Rover sport at 80mph was unheard of till 5 years ago.
Obama and the state of CA say "you're welcome!".

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I am actually quite happy that Musk is out as I've always thought of him as an arrogant prick....
Huh? Musk is still running the company. But whatever makes you happy!
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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 07:24 AM
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The Tesla Model 3 is HEAVY, compare it to a Charger or Challenger heavy.
Any EV with a usable range limit is going to be heavy for its size compared to a fuel burner - the energy density of even a bleeding edge technology battery is still not close to distilled fossilized carboniferous era vegetation.

That's not Tesla's fault. That's just physics.

Expect to need heavy lifting equipment to do a 'fuel tank change' on an EV for a long time to come.

In Tesla's defense, they put all that weight in the very best possible place - under the floor pan. Say what you will about a Tesla, but they do ride and handle well for their weight thanks to that low CG.
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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-16-2019, 08:40 AM
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I don't own a Tesla, but I did buy a Zero electric motorcycle last year. After years of owning and maintaining ICE bikes, the electric drivetrain was a revelation. I had no idea battery technology had gotten so good...for commuting or zipping around the city, the thing has been absolutely flawless and a ton of fun. It goes 100 miles between charges, and I plug into a standard outlet in my garage. All this is to say that the benefits and ease of electric vehicle ownership are pretty incredible. No buying gas, no oil changes, besides tires and brakes, no maintenance really, no special winter storage prep, no dead batteries in spring, etc...the thing is just so easy to use. I'm a believer. May get my wife a Model 3 as her next car...
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 07:37 AM
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Cxarrying the weight well does not alter the PHYSICS. After you drive a Lotus, everything is heavy and you get spoiled with the handling a light vehicle provides. Every 4000+lb vehicle I have ever either driven been a passenger in at thew track has a common feature--->they are all numb at the limits esp under braking and at turn in... No thanks.

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