Doug DeMuro on Horrid Range Rover - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Doug DeMuro on Horrid Range Rover

I've never met anyone pleased with the reliability of their Range Rover. I'm sure a couple may exist.

CR rates the Discovery, Range Rover, Evoque, Velar as WAY worse than average.

These videos are very funny:





You can post how great your experience with these things has been, but the public says (completely) the opposite.

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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 09:46 AM
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Keeping any of these big ticket luxury cars deep in to their life is being a glutten for punishment. MY Jaguars and now RR's have been MORE reliable than anything german I have owned up the the 10 yrs I kept my 2004 XJ VDP but it wasn't very high mileage. By and large I get rid of everything before it crosses 100K while there is still asset value for sale/trade in etc.
He was actually showing how foolish the warranty was. If not for that warranty, he should have unloaded it ages earlier if he had a clue. My instincts tell me he also beat the crap out of it....

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Audi Q7, RX450 & H, X5 all rated as better than average in reliability in CR vast readership polling.

4 worst brands:

Alfa, Land Rover, Jeep, Fiat (very low)

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 10:36 AM
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You can post how great your experience with these things has been, but the public says (completely) the opposite.
The public would say the same thing about Lotus if there were enough of them to get meaningful data. Will be interesting to see if the upcoming expanded Lotus brand can provide the reliability, service and dealership network that will be required to pull themselves out of the bottom.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 11:19 AM
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What's interesting is that you don't even need to scratch the surface of any magazine, website or youtube channel to understand what inferior products Jeep, Range Rover and Fiat produce. And yet, they are everywhere. People will spend their money on absolutely anything.

This story about the joint Toyota/GM Nummi plant perfectly illustrates how and why the American automobile industry should never have received a bailout and should have been allowed to collapse.

If you make and sell junk, you should fail. Simple as that.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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The public would say the same thing about Lotus if there were enough of them to get meaningful data. Will be interesting to see if the upcoming expanded Lotus brand can provide the reliability, service and dealership network that will be required to pull themselves out of the bottom.
I can't agree. I don't know about Evoras (which, being more complicated) seem a bit more troublesome), but the Elise & Exige have been darn reliable.

We had the early shifter replacement program and oil line fittings recall, but most cars seem to be trustworthy. Toyota drivetrain certainly helps.

While personal experience gauges nothing, my car need - 13 yrs - CDL module and switch pack module for lights. Nothing more.

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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What's interesting is that you don't even need to scratch the surface of any magazine, website or youtube channel to understand what inferior products Jeep, Range Rover and Fiat produce. And yet, they are everywhere. People will spend their money on absolutely anything.

This story about the joint Toyota/GM Nummi plant perfectly illustrates how and why the American automobile industry should never have received a bailout and should have been allowed to collapse.

If you make and sell junk, you should fail. Simple as that.
Can't agree on bailout, but I too am surprised about ppl buying such pieces of crap. Obviously research shy. Illogical too.

Most of the time I see a car towed/flat bedded, it's a Jeep.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 02:07 PM
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Listen to that story I linked to, it's fascinating. Workers coming in drunk every day, letting cars with known assembly issues continue down the line, gross mismanagement, knowingly selling the public a junk product, etc.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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I will, soon.

My good friend worked for GM, managing a plant in Ireland. Friday afternoons (after being men were paid) were horrible. Guys getting falling-down drunk at lunch, throwing up on the factory lawn, the wives pleading for the $ before it was all spent at the pub.

My friend decided to hire the women instead.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 02:36 PM
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I always thought the RRs had atrociously hard rides. My cousins RR sport was pounishing ona dirt road and the BIG RR had a ride thta is best described as grtty. But then the smae can be said for the turbo porche SUVs.

People truly are stupid, and will suffer with a lot for status.

How and why we got low profile tires on everything with corrospondigly crappy ride is puzzling.

Latley MB seems to be buildimg car with well resolved suspension for the street.

part of this is the blame of the automotive press with their obession with data and single lap times. Cars are then built to set new benchmarks for standards irrelevent to their intended purpose and the product objectively suffers.

As for RR reliability, yes it sucks and always has. However if you know how to look after one it can last and go places no other can, except a jeep wrangler.

In that sense these big offroaders are like ferraris, no one will use one iota of what they can really do, but the smug owner gets a thrill knowing it can, and derives status..
Meanwhile my mothers 2005 Jaguar s type runs perfectly and has never missed a beat, but then its really a ford/lincoln under the skin.
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-05-2018, 02:29 PM
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Hmm, a few months in, my wife's LR2 has been a peach. Glad we got the extended warranty!

because racecar
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-05-2018, 03:39 PM
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Can't agree on bailout, but I too am surprised about ppl buying such pieces of crap. Obviously research shy. Illogical too.

Most of the time I see a car towed/flat bedded, it's a Jeep.

Anecdotally, I had rented a Jeep something or other last year, the thing was not drivable, I had to return it for another make of rental car.

Sixty years later, they're still banking on the namesake for a US DOD "general purpose" vehicle for WW2, while Uncle Sam has moved on to the HMMWV (High-Mobility Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle).
Kubera likes this.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-05-2018, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Listen to that story I linked to, it's fascinating. Workers coming in drunk every day, letting cars with known assembly issues continue down the line, gross mismanagement, knowingly selling the public a junk product, etc.
Thanks for that.

I'd heard it before, but it was worth a 2nd listen. "This American Life" is a terrific show.

Sad to hear, tho, of the ridiculous attitudes of GM mgmt and unions. GM was like a giant tub in the water that took years to move. They got away with selling crap for decades.

I've said before that "buy American" makes sense only when the product is good/comparable. In the end, it hurt our automakers.

=====

While in my 40s, I very much took to our neighbors who were in their 80s.

Jack was one of the world's best electrical engineers (Bell Labs, helped invent transistor, set up tracking stations across the world for Telstar, etc). Helen had been a teacher and was a great cook and square foot gardener.

We spent a lot of time with them as they were funny and really smart. Jack couldn't tell me what he'd done in WWII until 50 yrs had passed.

He was president emeritus of many orgs.

They wanted me to meet their best friends; that husband went to HS with Jack.

Unsure at how many friends twice my age I wanted, I stalled.

One day, Jack knew I was home and his friends were there. I could never insult Jack, so Lorraine and I went over.

Terrific couple. Wife was smart and very nice. Husband and I discussed manufacturing techniques in Japan vs US. (I was helping run a plant and doing some reading about topic.)

Husband was extremely bright, knowledgable and at least feigned interest in what I said. I liked him a lot.

When Jack left to make drinks (not for us), I followed and asked what his friend had done for a living before retirement.

With a sort of dismissive wave of his hand, Jack said "Oh, him? He was president of AT&T."

We got to know them a bit, but the husband passed away a few months later. Amazing obit in NYT, more than a page.

I then took care of wife's car needs. Shopping, dealing with service, etc. I was very happy to help her anytime.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2018, 04:37 AM
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I always thought the RRs had atrociously hard rides. My cousins RR sport was pounishing ona dirt road and the BIG RR had a ride thta is best described as grtty. But then the smae can be said for the turbo porche SUVs.

People truly are stupid, and will suffer with a lot for status.

How and why we got low profile tires on everything with corrospondigly crappy ride is puzzling.

Latley MB seems to be buildimg car with well resolved suspension for the street.

part of this is the blame of the automotive press with their obession with data and single lap times. Cars are then built to set new benchmarks for standards irrelevent to their intended purpose and the product objectively suffers.

As for RR reliability, yes it sucks and always has. However if you know how to look after one it can last and go places no other can, except a jeep wrangler.

In that sense these big offroaders are like ferraris, no one will use one iota of what they can really do, but the smug owner gets a thrill knowing it can, and derives status..
Meanwhile my mothers 2005 Jaguar s type runs perfectly and has never missed a beat, but then its really a ford/lincoln under the skin.
Sorry Box have to disagree with you on many statements herw.
1. Ride is indeed firm but WELL controlled and seats are BEST I've ever experienced.
2. ALL of my British vehicles have been MORE reliable than any German car.
3. I drive up side of mountain all the time and have raised suspension for some gnarly bits
4. BTW my 3.0SC is tuned to 456/412 so at 300lbs lighter than a 5.0SC, it hauls ass!!
5. I stayed wioth the stock HSE 20's because a 255/55R20 has plenty of sidewall. 235/65R19 snoes ....
6. Jaguars are NOT Ford/Lincolns under the skin beyond quality control. which made my 04 XJ VDP perfect for 10yrs!!
7. My 2015 Evoque had a LOUSY (GERMAN) ZF 9 speed tranny that I couldn't tolerate. I blame that on ZF as NO ONE has been able to make that piece of crap work.
When I drive 375 miles to and from Maine all winter, I have encountered some pretty hellacious road conditions. Being behind a logging truck in a sedan in heavy snow REALLY sucks!!!
Finally having a Range Rover does indeed give you prestige above all the german dime a dozen leased wannabe types
Britsh =ally. Still don't trust germans to be honest and I've had my bad experience with german reliability.

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16 Range Rover Sport HSE, Montalcino Red w/Ivory Leather-[/COLOR]- 456HP/412ft-lb Tq
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2018, 08:47 AM
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BTW, for Doug to keep bringing the car back to the same place for obviously BS quality repairs suggests he is NOT VERY BRIGHT!!

I stopped putting ANY faith in ANYTHING about Consumer Reports 20yrs ago. Gathering data from automotive idiots does not result in good data. They ONLY look at vehicles as appliances and the more frugal the better.

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16 Range Rover Sport HSE, Montalcino Red w/Ivory Leather-[/COLOR]- 456HP/412ft-lb Tq
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2018, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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I can't agree. We can tell from his videos that he's smart and funny.

Plus, he's created a terrific business for himself.

Piss-poor quality parts from LR is the issue, not often dealer workmanship.

The same parts kept breaking because of quality & insouciance, not the installation skill.

--
CR is, in fact, a great publication. It's saved me thousands of dollars over the years.

Moreover, their large readership is from where the Frequency of Repair and reliability reports come. So CR's attitude about cars (with which I mostly agree) has no bearing.

Since the 70s, their reports about cars I had or maintained were quite accurate, starting with a Datsun 510.


And, they have auto engineers on their staff; likely not idiots. Some of those guys race.

I remember when CR tested the Elise. Ppl here were outraged, but everything in the article was true, IIRC.

The scam is J D Power. Their initial (quality?) poll really addresses only how quickly new owners learn their cars systems, e.g. infotainment.

Not a savory firm.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2018, 08:25 AM
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JD Power is indeed junk. As is often said, your results may vary. My German vehicles and equipment have been the sources of the FEW automotive failures I have ever had. In the hands of somebody that cares for their equipment my Jaguars were 100% reliable. My RRS is still 100% perfect. My Evoque had a GERMAN tranny issue (ZF 9 speed)....My Lincoln MKC was a great car. Only minor niggles were overboosted steering,sluggish tranny and seats needed to be ~1-2 inches longer. Besides that kudos to American car but as I am going to pick up a new Stelvio today which is hands down the BEST driving SUV I have ever experienced, we'll see how she lasts . My 1993 Alfa Romeo 164 L was perfect for the 10yrs I owned her except at 60K the German ZF tranny needed seals replaced just like on all the Audis, Saabs etc that used that tranny. My personal experience has been with FAILED GERMAN PARTS.... I don't need CR to replace my experiences, and if they do race, they need to learn to launch a car properly. Hell, I could reproduce their times and I DO NOT DRAG RACE. Stick to toasters.

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16 Range Rover Sport HSE, Montalcino Red w/Ivory Leather-[/COLOR]- 456HP/412ft-lb Tq
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-21-2018, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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We had a lot of Alfas at the shop where I consulted & worked. That was god for us, but owners had tons of problems.

Again, note that miniscule samplings are of no value. Can’t get much more miniscule than one.

Let’s not confuse (again) readership reports of repairs and reliability with CR’s testing crews.

The former has a vast number of reports from an equally vast number of readers. I take part in each annual survey. In my experience, the data is accurate

Of course, you could “reproduce their times”. They are not drag racing the cars either. CR isn’t C&D or R&T or Hot Rod, is it?

Let us know how you like the Stelvio. Isn’t that the name of a sugar substitute?
--

An aside: In the past the more posh the German cars were, the worse their reliability was.

Much of that had to do with the more electrical doodads in the 7s, Ss and Audi 7s/8s.

Funny, tho, how nicely the electrons behaved in the Lexus lineup....

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 05:07 AM
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The ride home in the Stelvio (named after the famous pass thru the Alps) was amazing. At barely over 4000 lbs it rides, drives and handles better than most sedans till you enter the true performance zone. Also pretty quick at 0-60 in 5.4 for the BASE motor. IT IS THE SUV piece of art on the market. It has the same ZF 8 speed tranny as my RRS but the shifting logic is best I have ever experienced. I REALLY MEAN IT..THIS VEHICLE HAS RAISED THE BAR JUST LIKE ALL THE REVIEWS ARE SAYING..ALFA HIT ONE OUT OF THE PARK HERE.

16 Maserati GranTurismo Sport Ext Campio /Grigio Chronos w/full MC Carbon Fiber interior trim, Stock for now
18 Alfa Romeo Stelvio Visconti Verde/Brown Leather Remus Catback,Eurocompulsion Phase 2 V2 intake, 390HP/443ft-lb Tq!
16 Range Rover Sport HSE, Montalcino Red w/Ivory Leather-[/COLOR]- 456HP/412ft-lb Tq
12 Maxda MX-5 Miata GT PRHT True Red/Black leather
11 Lotus Evora "S" Persian Blue, Grey/Black Suedetex/Leather
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 05-14-2018, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...rm-test-review

A Familiar Future

Electronic gremlins have plagued several recent JLR test cars, including our last long-term Range Rover, a 2016 Td6 diesel model, so it was with mild trepidation that we welcomed this specimen into our fleet. It’s not surprising, then, that the most prominent comments in the Velar’s logbook have centered on its high-tech computer interface. For all its functionality and high-resolution graphics, the learning curve is relatively steep, and its extensive configurability has prompted even tech-savvy drivers to chide it for being overly complex. Others have acclimated more quickly, but having so few physical controls on hand means that interacting with the two tablets on the console is impossible to avoid.


The upper screen is largely responsible for audio, navigation, phone, and settings functions, with the lower primarily used for climate controls and the myriad driving-mode setups. But along with the configurability of the digital gauge cluster, many of the display functions, such as audio information, can be shown simultaneously on multiple screens; the two rotary control knobs integrated into the lower screen serve multiple purposes, depending on the function toggled on the display. Using them can adjust cabin temperature, fan speed, or seat heating and ventilation levels, as well as driving-mode settings (driver’s side only). We’ll likely grow more accustomed to the setup and fidget with it less as we configure it to our liking, but it still presents a lot of options to sort through while driving.

As we’ve experienced with previous JLR systems, touch inputs for the dual screens also occasionally respond slowly and inconsistently. And one morning, at just 2650 miles, both displays failed to awake when the vehicle was started. Although the audio system resumed where it had left off the day before—albeit without any way to adjust it—none of the other functions worked, and the computer refused to reboot itself even after multiple ignition cycles. The Velar apparently just needed a rest, as its systems were back to normal the following morning; since there was no way to re-create the issue and no warning code to analyze and clear, a trip to the dealer likely would have been unproductive. Another glitch occurred at about 3450 miles, when the center portion of the digital instrument cluster began scrolling wildly and was unable to properly render the navigation display. This time a tap of the Menu button on the steering wheel returned it to working order.

More frustrating was a temporary powertrain glitch at around 4400 miles, which seemed to prevent the 2.0-liter turbo engine from making any boost. “There was no check-engine light or any stumbling, but I could run the engine to redline with my foot on the floor while accelerating with all the might of an ’84 Ford Fiesta,” testing director K.C. Colwell wrote in the logbook. The incident persisted through multiple ignition cycles and also affected the transmission, which refused to kick down even when pressing the accelerator past the detent in its travel. As with the infotainment issue, the gremlins were gone the following morning and the problem has yet to resurface.

---

Can't understand why anyone would buy such things.

When I see one, I think "Hey, there's someone that doesn't read road tests or CR."

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
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