A Modest Proposal (Automotive) - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #41 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 11:45 PM
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Speaking of overpopulation, my wife chimed in and thinks education and birth control are key to saving our species. To be clear, she's not advocating a Thanos solution though

She found this video, from the Museum of Natural History, showing the growth of our population through the ages. Starts off slow, hits 2nd cam after a few minutes, then says eff it and straps on the booster rockets...

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post #42 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 03:55 AM
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Wow, interesting discussion that I am so NOT gonna wade into. The Electric car stuff is interesting though. As an engineer, I find the technical aspects of the full "cradle-to-grave" of emissions interesting. In some ways and efficient IC engine is more efficient because we aren't strip-mining the earth for Lithium in China or Cobalt in the Congo. Of course, child labor abuses in the Congo are also pretty bad. That is not to throw rocks at electric, as that is a "right-now" problem from early industry start-up that will probably get solved as the industry matures. As an Electrical Engineer, I find the Electric and Hybrid stuff fascinating. Looking forward to "modding" that stuff in the future. As an enthusiast, the sowing machine sound of an electric does nothing for me, though as a consumer, not changing oil will be nice.

On the Electric front, some very interesting mid to long-term challenges:

1. I think we will settle on a 200-250 mile range as the sweet spot for a while. Why? Smaller batteries are lighter, cheaper, and charge faster. Additionally, since we are charging every night at home, seldom will we need to stop to charge except on trips. Once the charging infrastructure is in place, longer than 200-250 mile range will be unnecessary.

2. Electric car usage will make it HARDER to use renewable energy as currently peak demand is in the afternoon/early evening as AC loads and meal prep dominate. Most folks with Electric vehicle charge overnight because of time-of-day use plans, which can't use solar. We can use batteries, which currently are an environmental mess as mentioned above. A certain amount of reality needs to be injected into the Energy production conversation. Many people don't realize that the US was the leading country last year in reducing its CO2 production. Why? Fracking which produces cheap natural gas which is much better on CO2 vs coal. Nuclear needs to be reconsidered, with Thorium reactors looking quite interesting.

If you need a new sport cat or track-pipe for your car, stop by our website.....
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post #43 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 06:25 AM
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Your statement #2 really got my attention. No solar charging a night. Has this been played down!!!!????

Until we get REAL 400 mile range, many long trip folks will not transition. I REFUSE to stop on my 375 mile drive from home to home to charge up.

Population control doesn't get people elected. Population control is nor popular. People have different agendas that pop control does not fit into easily.
2 kids and snip could indeed solve a lot of problems ESP in the 3rd world!!!

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post #44 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by brgelise View Post
Your statement #2 really got my attention. No solar charging a night. Has this been played down!!!!????

Until we get REAL 400 mile range, many long trip folks will not transition. I REFUSE to stop on my 375 mile drive from home to home to charge up.
I know you are joking, but as evening demand goes up it makes it harder and harder to use renewable(which is impossible now, but more impossible with more EVs) This is where the hardcore greenies really disconnect with reality.

On the range, would you care about 400 mile range if it took only 5-10 minutes to charge up i.e. same as gas? That is my contention. Once the infrastructure gets built out and the super fast charging gets standardized, I think the sweet spot will be 200-250 miles. Most people want to stop, stretch and/or use the bathroom every 2-3 hours anyway. I think the 350-400 mile range will be a thing to start with while the infrastructure is built out, but it limits mass-adoption because of costs. Both costs and charging time get improved with less range which will only be comfortable when charging is as ubiquitous as gas pumps. Additionally, the shorter range won't be as noticeable because most of the use-case will be "full tank every morning"


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post #45 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 12:50 PM
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Charging issue _ I was serious. It really has been played down just like increased diesel costs in winter.
Range issue. My vacation home is 373 miles away and I have been driving it non-stop for almost 20yrs. It is easily done because we don't turn a 5.5 hr trip into a longer trip everytime. Hybrids will have to do for my needs but I have yet to see a hybrid that isn't 300-500 lbs porkier and therefore, as a Lotus mentality driver, poorer handling than its IC siblings. Look at the weight increase on my RRS in its new hybrid format!

16 Maserati GranTurismo Sport Ext Campio /Grigio Chronos w/full MC Carbon Fiber interior trim, Stock for now
18 Alfa Romeo Stelvio Visconti Verde/Brown Leather Remus Catback,Eurocompulsion Phase 2 V2 intake, 390HP/443ft-lb Tq!
16 Range Rover Sport HSE, Montalcino Red w/Ivory Leather-[/COLOR]- 456HP/412ft-lb Tq
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post #46 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fzust View Post
Wow, interesting discussion that I am so NOT gonna wade into. The Electric car stuff is interesting though. As an engineer, I find the technical aspects of the full "cradle-to-grave" of emissions interesting. In some ways and efficient IC engine is more efficient because we aren't strip-mining the earth for Lithium in China or Cobalt in the Congo. Of course, child labor abuses in the Congo are also pretty bad. That is not to throw rocks at electric, as that is a "right-now" problem from early industry start-up that will probably get solved as the industry matures. As an Electrical Engineer, I find the Electric and Hybrid stuff fascinating. Looking forward to "modding" that stuff in the future. As an enthusiast, the sowing machine sound of an electric does nothing for me, though as a consumer, not changing oil will be nice.

On the Electric front, some very interesting mid to long-term challenges:

1. I think we will settle on a 200-250 mile range as the sweet spot for a while. Why? Smaller batteries are lighter, cheaper, and charge faster. Additionally, since we are charging every night at home, seldom will we need to stop to charge except on trips. Once the charging infrastructure is in place, longer than 200-250 mile range will be unnecessary.

2. Electric car usage will make it HARDER to use renewable energy as currently peak demand is in the afternoon/early evening as AC loads and meal prep dominate. Most folks with Electric vehicle charge overnight because of time-of-day use plans, which can't use solar. We can use batteries, which currently are an environmental mess as mentioned above. A certain amount of reality needs to be injected into the Energy production conversation. Many people don't realize that the US was the leading country last year in reducing its CO2 production. Why? Fracking which produces cheap natural gas which is much better on CO2 vs coal. Nuclear needs to be reconsidered, with Thorium reactors looking quite interesting.

If you need a new sport cat or track-pipe for your car, stop by our website.....
I would prefer you deleted "track-pipe".

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post #47 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 06:24 PM
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brgelise, I see, you do have a very specific use and I am sure that 400+ mile versions will still be optional. My contention is the the 80/20, I think will be smaller for reasons mentioned and that will take a while. There are always people that will want the extra range(me too, honestly).

glb, I know you would prefer I delete it, but rather than tell grown adults what to do, we let them choose and don't judge them for it. There are legitimate use cases for both and every person has to decide what is right for them. After all, if we take the green philosophy to its ultimate extension, none of us should own cars, much less impractical Lotuses. We should not eat meat. In fact we should all just kill ourselves since every breath and methane emission damages mother GIA! (tongue firmly planted in cheek) Obviously, there is a more reasonable middle but each person has the right to figure it out for themselves. Our street Lotus has a cat, our Optima car has a cat, and the XP car does not. We do run the XP car on e85 which helps on emissions, but we used e85 for Power.


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post #48 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 07:42 PM
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The only reason I would like to remove the cat from my Elise is for improved throttle response. It is a pure drivers car and I want it to be as good as possible in all ways (that I can afford). I wouldn't do it for the negligible power increase or sound.

I removed the cat from my old DC2R to make the throttle more responsive. It really had an effect. I also removed the cat on my Evo 9, at the same time as some other exhaust work and it worked there too to a lesser extent.

The Elise is fly-by-wire throttle though so it will never be perfect, and these days I agree with the OP and wouldn't want it on my conscience. I thought about this same thing when deciding to supercharge the car, as that will obviously increase fuel consumption. I selfishly justified it by the fact that the car does like 4k kms per year, is more economical than many others on the road and hopefully it won't make that much difference anyway.

15 odd years ago though, I didn't give it much thought. These days I wouldn't remove a cat again.

I think if the world is going to have a future worth living in (which i don't) people need to stop believing what suits them and start considering what their children might have to deal with during their lives.

Brave post by the OP on a car enthusiasts forum. Kudos.
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post #49 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 03:43 AM
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post #50 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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glb, I know you would prefer I delete it, but rather than tell grown adults what to do, we let them choose and don't judge them for it. There are legitimate use cases for both and every person has to decide what is right for them.

Fred,

Here is how it works in USA and most countries: We can do pretty much anything we want....unless it breaks laws or harms another person.

Clearly, removing a cat fails both of those tests.

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post #51 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 11:52 AM
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Fred,

Here is how it works in USA and most countries: We can do pretty much anything we want....unless it breaks laws or harms another person.

Clearly, removing a cat fails both of those tests.
Funny, you should mention that, as I almost did! The track-pipe is for off-road use only for the reasons you mentioned. Cheers!


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post #52 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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But, we can't be sure who uses them how, can we?

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
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post #53 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 05:34 PM
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But, we can't be sure who uses them how, can we?
Not my job. We can't be sure how people use fire arms, automobiles, alcohol, chainsaws, knives, pepper spray etc., however they are sold on a daily basis. We expect people to follow the law and advise them to do so.

In other news, I've toyed with the idea of electrifying a Lotus. Obviously that is called a Tesla roadster and I doubt we could do it as well, but it would be a cool project.


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post #54 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 05:22 AM
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In other news, I've toyed with the idea of electrifying a Lotus. Obviously that is called a Tesla roadster and I doubt we could do it as well, but it would be a cool project.
I've thought about this idea as well. On the one hand, you'd be a parts integrator without access to OEM design resources. On the other hand, there are a lot more EVs on the road than there were when the Tesla roadster was designed and the pool of parts, technology and methods is a lot deeper. Also battery (and battery management) technology continues to advance, which is how the Tesla Model S keeps increasing in performance with the same platform, envelope, and drivetrain.

I suspect you could put the battery capacity of the roadster in a 20% smaller package than it used. The 18650 cells generally used for traction batteries are easily packaged in all sorts of odd shapes, and it happens that there are a lot of interesting voids in the Elige that you could stuff batteries into - the door sills for instance. This could have the effect of improving the polar moment of inertia over even a stock Elise if the motor/transmission/electronics package is lighter and more compact than a 2ZZGE + six speed. The fuel tank void behind the seats is also a convenient shape that would efficiently swallow a good sized battery all by itself.

Further, if you cooled the motor and electronics with the oil cooler ducts, almost all the water plumbing and radiator weight (and heat) goes away, and a lot of volume around the footbox becomes available as well. Ditching the radiator makes it easier to air condition should you still feel the need.

Frankly, it's a lot easier to usefully electrify an Elise than many other platforms I've seen - it's not wedded to an IC engine driveline shape, and there are several good places for the batteries and electronics. It would be a lot harder to electrify a Corvette well, for instance.
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post #55 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 05:36 AM
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Musk apparently didn't like the Lotus for EP.....https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbap.../#6e23ae25540f
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post #56 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 08:02 AM
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Musk apparently didn't like the Lotus for EP.....https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbap.../#6e23ae25540f
A careful reading of that article points out that one of the reasons it didn't work especially well was because they wanted to use the ACMotors tzero driveline, which didn't work - not Lotus' problem.

The other reason cited was that the batteries added 30% to vehicle weight. I think that might not be true today if you kept the same performance targets as the original T roadster had - battery and control technology has come a long way in the 10 years since the roadster was introduced. Think about how much battery life an iPhone 3G has versus a current smart phone, and the current phone is probably a lot smaller/lighter with a bigger screen (back light power consumption is proportional to brightness and area) as well.

Compact, lightweight EV powertrains are already out there - the Nissan Leaf drivetrain, for instance, is common and about the right size, shape (might want to move the electronics off to the side for a better CG, though) and output. One or the other (front or rear) of the Tesla Model 3 packs might also work.
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post #57 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 09:17 AM
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Cargo ships are the worst. + China + India. I don't think cruize ships are any better. The air quality in S. Califor. has cleaned up quite a bit since the '60s thx to CAFE and now I can drive Angeles Crest without crying but many "polluting" US small businesses moved down to Tijuana not buy choice but when the wind blows offshore from the South.....oh well.

IIRC, WA state is able to measure pollution blown from China in their atmosphere. Xi can sign an agreement but China is certainly not gonna stop burning coal.

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/...bon-pollution/
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post #58 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 09:20 AM
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Agreed Liftnot2 but it looks like that will be changing. This appeared in today's paper https://pilotonline.com/business/por...229028ad0.html
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post #59 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 09:37 AM
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History tells us 3rd world countries rarely if ever play by the 1st world rules set by more advanced countries. Many are still stuck in the industrialization age. We are just not on the same page in so many areas as much as we are trying to make the world a better place. However, I'll do my part to keep my cats on to feel good about myself.
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post #60 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 01:42 AM
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For concerns about charging overnight, range and weight, this might be part of a solution:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pens-in-sweden

The road can charge your car while you drive, meaning you also could use a smaller, lighter battery. In this case it looks like there's a narrow band you need to follow to charge your car, but I can imagine it scaling up, or using wireless charging in the future to give you more leeway to move around.

With electric grids connected together, we probably don't need to worry about solar charging at night, since we can tap into power generated elsewhere, by hydro dams, wind, tidal, geothermal, gas, nuclear, etc. Could have a larger mix of different green power sources and some fallbacks.

Last edited by krn; 03-10-2019 at 03:17 AM.
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