A Modest Proposal (Automotive) - Page 4 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #61 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 05:40 PM
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I don't think you read the rest of my comment...

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post #62 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 04:23 AM
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Liftnot2, yeah China plays at mercantilism while pretending not to. They've been playing the "developing country" card far too long. Any meaningful Green-Plan requires their active involvement. On the cat front, there are sport cats available, such as ours from Larini, that give you the best of both worlds. Less restriction and cleaned-up emissions. The reason race cars don't use them is not just horsepower loss, but reliability. The sustained heat and unburned fuel load of the cats is not good for longevity. If it is really important to the owner, they could look at the cat as a consumable on their track car.


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post #63 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by krn View Post
For concerns about charging overnight, range and weight, this might be part of a solution:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pens-in-sweden

The road can charge your car while you drive, meaning you also could use a smaller, lighter battery. In this case it looks like there's a narrow band you need to follow to charge your car, but I can imagine it scaling up, or using wireless charging in the future to give you more leeway to move around.

With electric grids connected together, we probably don't need to worry about solar charging at night, since we can tap into power generated elsewhere, by hydro dams, wind, tidal, geothermal, gas, nuclear, etc. Could have a larger mix of different green power sources and some fallbacks.

I wouldn't call that a modest proposal in the US. That article cites the cost of that rail as 1million euros per kilometer of road. Using that figure, it would cost $375B USD to run rails on only the interstate and state highways in the US. Given our penchant for inefficiency and cost overruns, I'd bet it would be a lot higher. Then throw in other roads that might need to be electrified, a system for snow and ice management that I didn't see discussed, the continual deterioration of our roads due to truck traffic, maintenance costs, and the actual cost of electricity generation. I think a similar project here in the US where our travel distances are a lot greater would likely be cost-prohibitive.

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post #64 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 12:35 PM
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I wouldn't call that a modest proposal in the US. That article cites the cost of that rail as 1million euros per kilometer of road. Using that figure, it would cost $375B USD to run rails on only the interstate and state highways in the US. Given our penchant for inefficiency and cost overruns, I'd bet it would be a lot higher. Then throw in other roads that might need to be electrified, a system for snow and ice management that I didn't see discussed, the continual deterioration of our roads due to truck traffic, maintenance costs, and the actual cost of electricity generation. I think a similar project here in the US where our travel distances are a lot greater would likely be cost-prohibitive.
I think there are several points worth noting here:
  • you don't need to wire every mile of road as long as the charge rate is higher than the discharge rate
  • If you can inductively charge an EV from a road, an EV can inductively charge the road (and the power grid) when going downhill or decelerating, just like light rail trains do
  • the supposedly cost-prohibitive $375 bn number is 34 Gerald R Ford class aircraft carriers (not counting materiel and aircraft complement). We could buy 7500 miles of highway electrification every five years with a slight rebudgeting and no change in taxes. It's all about the priorities.
  • I think it's just plain impractical to wire the lowest-use interstate corridors (mostly in the far west). Some of those roads should never have been built to that capacity anyway. When the power transmission losses exceed the amount of power consumed, you have wired unwisely.
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post #65 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 01:02 PM
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I wasn't necessarily proposing that those are the roads we wire, just using our interstate and state highway systems, which are <5% of public road miles, as a starting point for discussion. I used only the miles of those roads, not the lane miles, because presumably roads would need to be wired in both directions, and in heavily traveled areas might need to have more than one lane wired each way. I would also suggest that the long distance interstates in the west are the ones that will need to be wired if we're all to switch to EV, simply because running out of charge is so problematic, unless somebody wants to utilize driver-replaceable batteries. I googled that Sweden project and couldn't find any info about maintenance costs or winter road maintenance.


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Cargo ships are the worst. + China + India. I don't think cruize ships are any better.
I don't know about cruise ships, but passenger air flight will quickly escalate the size of your carbon footprint. Not having kids, not flying, and not living in a god-forsaken cold climate where nearly everyone is dependent on some CO2-generating heat source for survival are probably the biggest things you can do to decrease that footprint.
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post #66 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by KCZ View Post
I would also suggest that the long distance interstates in the west are the ones that will need to be wired if we're all to switch to EV, simply because running out of charge is so problematic, unless somebody wants to utilize driver-replaceable batteries. I googled that Sweden project and couldn't find any info about maintenance costs or winter road maintenance.
Another option might be to start with chargers built into major intersections. With every red light or in traffic, you could be getting a decent charge. Charge up on your way out of town, maybe have some strategically placed chargers on long stretches between towns to keep people going, and charge again in the next town you pass through. Add it to the current range on EVs plus some charging at home, maybe that could be just enough for a large chunk of the population?

For winter conditions, maybe they can install heaters along the rails at the same time that can be switched on. Might be somewhat hazardous to walk on if it malfunctions though, fry wildlife, melt tires, start forest fires...
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post #67 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 04:28 AM
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No one wants to talk about it, but inductive charging is NOT efficient, only 75-80% transfer efficiency. To be blunt you throw all the "gains" on electricity out the window. It is likely worse in that the car will need some air gap to the charger while moving. The ONLY way, I could see it making sense is if you had low-cost, Thorium Nuclear power where the waste is not the problem it currently is. (Note that pretty much everything in the previous sentence does NOT exist currently.) At this point, looking like highly efficient IC engines make that most sense from a cradle-to-grave emissions sense, not that I wouldn't love to see more electrics. I would just prefer it from a rational, logic-based implementation, not about what makes people feel good about their "green" virtue-signalling.


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post #68 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 04:55 AM
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No one wants to talk about it, but inductive charging is NOT efficient, only 75-80% transfer efficiency. To be blunt you throw all the "gains" on electricity out the window. .
No, no it would not.

First, because electric cars are that much more efficient than ICE.

Second, because only a percentage of the charging would be delivered in this fashion

There are many other reasons that this is a bad idea, but not transfer efficiency

We no longer have a range problem,existing cars travel over 300 miles between charges. This simply ceases to be a problem except for ideologues who oppose electric cars on principle.

We have a charging time problem. IF I need to drive 350 miles it is problematic to wait an hour or more to charge a vehicle.
Additionally once you solve the charging time problem, you create an infrastructure problem. A interstate rest area level of charging stations capable of charging cars in 10 minutes pulls the peak current of a small city.


Look, depending on who is sitting in front of me, I can argue any number of positions on the topic of AGW, but burning petroleum for transportation fuel is about the dumbest use of it going forward, no matter what your position on it.
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post #69 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 08:16 AM
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Although I agree with your overall sentiment, and in climate change, I'll be staying cat-less (for sound reasons).

A line from one of my favorite movies...

"Evil is a dunghill Mr. Angel, everyone stands on his own and speaks out about someone else's."

I only drive my car about 500 miles a year, and I'm very environmentally conscious, so I can live with that footprint.
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post #70 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 09:31 AM
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First, let me say, that I agree with alot of what you are saying. We do have a charging time problem as I mentioned many posts ago. To some extent the infrastructure problem is easier and harder to solve. We won't need as many charging stations because people will do the bulk of their charging at home. however this reduced demand also means there will be reduced supply making it harder to find a convenient charging station.

I think you are over-stating the efficiency advantage of electric vs. ICE for various reasons, most of which can be seen here: https://www.quora.com/How-energy-eff...ustion-engines. This doesn't get into the cradle-to-grave environmental impacts of making the batteries and sourcing the materials. I think that is a real effect that honestly could be better or worse than building an ICE car. Hard to find unbiased data on this since it is practically a religious issue.

Even if we don't burn gas, we will burn natural gas to make electricity(which has half the carbon footprint of similar energy of coal).

In summary, I think we will slowly move to full electric and that is probably a good thing. However, I would like to see honest data on the real costs in terms of energy and environment.


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Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
No, no it would not.

First, because electric cars are that much more efficient than ICE.

Second, because only a percentage of the charging would be delivered in this fashion

There are many other reasons that this is a bad idea, but not transfer efficiency

We no longer have a range problem,existing cars travel over 300 miles between charges. This simply ceases to be a problem except for ideologues who oppose electric cars on principle.

We have a charging time problem. IF I need to drive 350 miles it is problematic to wait an hour or more to charge a vehicle.
Additionally once you solve the charging time problem, you create an infrastructure problem. A interstate rest area level of charging stations capable of charging cars in 10 minutes pulls the peak current of a small city.


Look, depending on who is sitting in front of me, I can argue any number of positions on the topic of AGW, but burning petroleum for transportation fuel is about the dumbest use of it going forward, no matter what your position on it.


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post #71 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 01:24 PM
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I don't think I am overestimating efficiency

from your link:
...
Unfortunately typical efficiency on the freeway is only 30%, and goes down the lower your engine load is, down to near 0% at idle (where it's only generating a few hundred watts of electricity to run your car).

...

It then goes on to talk about coal..... we have zero coal in Mass[correction, .9 percent, apparently we must import some as the last coal [plant closed in '17], and it is the least efficient most polluting source, and is spiraling the drain because of it.

When I see coal mentioned in an argument against electric cars, I know where they are coming from. 27 percent of generation and dropping like a stone.

ICE engines primary failure in efficiency is their narrow power band, and then how much they pollute to make power,rather than just cruising

look at the difference when they are used in hybrids and can run at peak efficiency to charge a battery, serial hybrids are killer

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post #72 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-17-2019, 04:46 AM
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When the hybrid concept gets to a point where there is no weight penalty for us sporting drivers, we will all be driving, at least , hybrids.

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post #73 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-17-2019, 07:52 AM
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I like numbers. It's easier to understand than words for explaining complicated things. I find this TED Talk helpful to give a broader perspective.

www.ted.com/talks/david_mackay_a_reality_check_on_renewables?languag e=en#t-821933"

There is no doubt the world is moving on from ICE and I believe it is a good things to have choices but there is nothing like a flat plane, NA V8/10/12 cacophony of sounds even with cats on. Perhaps the next generation will never know what it sounds like in person.
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post #74 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
I don't think I am overestimating efficiency

from your link:
...
Unfortunately typical efficiency on the freeway is only 30%, and goes down the lower your engine load is, down to near 0% at idle (where it's only generating a few hundred watts of electricity to run your car).

...

It then goes on to talk about coal..... we have zero coal in Mass[correction, .9 percent, apparently we must import some as the last coal [plant closed in '17], and it is the least efficient most polluting source, and is spiraling the drain because of it.

When I see coal mentioned in an argument against electric cars, I know where they are coming from. 27 percent of generation and dropping like a stone.

ICE engines primary failure in efficiency is their narrow power band, and then how much they pollute to make power,rather than just cruising

look at the difference when they are used in hybrids and can run at peak efficiency to charge a battery, serial hybrids are killer
To be clear, I wasn't using coal as an argument against electric cars. I was saying that there will be alot of natural gas used to generate electricity. As a side note, the natural gas supply and low cost is a by-product of fracking growth in the US. My contention is that from total cradle-to-grave emissions, I don't believe it is settled science TODAY on Electric cars. I think it is going that way. As we learn how to charge better, build less environmentally disastrous batteries, and charge them faster, I believe it will overtake most of the ICE vehicles over time. I also believe that as charge times drop, the pull to spend $375B on electrified roads may diminish.

One poster comparing the road budget to 34 Gerald R. Ford carriers is an interesting one. There are currently 19 Nimitz carriers in operation + the 1 Gerald R. Ford. There are only 10 planned GRF Carriers with the last of the first 5 expected to launch in 2032. Clearly far fewer and far less $$$ than the poster is comparing especially given the slow roll out of GRF carriers.


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post #75 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 06:22 AM
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I, too, agree that we are in an era of transition. As Americans in a LARGE country, our range needs are far greater than most of the industrialized world. If I was a daily commuter and drove 50-100miles/day, no doubt I would already own at least a hybrid or electric car. Commuters miss out on fun driving due to the traffic they are ensnared with throughout the ride. For those of us fortunate enough to have smooth sailing commutes, my 11 mile trip has a killer on and off ramp as well as a mile long power accel hill to play on if I choose, the only place a Tesla would be fun is the uphill blast, but that heavy load of batteries, while highly capable, is just not fun to throw into the twisties. Some of the most boring days I have spent at a track are in overweight, big HP cars like the Hellcat or AMG s and the like. They can do it well, but its just not as much fun. This is why the weight factor continues to be my #1 deterrent at present. Let's see what happens by 2025. The improvements every year are pretty remarkable and far more intriguing than all this autonomous BS.

To pipe back in on the original topic of CATS, anyone pulling the cats on their street car, to be fair, except us Evora driver's with primary cats and only removing the 3rd cat which seems to do little (isn't even monitored) except overheat the engine bay, there is nothing to gain from it. 1-2 HP??? I agree with the op on this one. We do a pretty comprehensive emissions check in CT under load...and we pass with flying colors.

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post #76 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 06:53 AM
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no Fred, you were not comparing coal, but your linked article was.

Batteries are not environmentally disastrous, burning oil for fuel is environmentally disastrous. You can link a thousand articles about mining lithium in wherever, and dumping it wherever, and it does not add up to what the oil industry does every year, just on the production end.

Battery materials are recyclable, oil is just pollution

We need not do real math to show that electric propulsion is more efficient than ICE, a 1.8l Prius gets at least 20 percent better mileage than any gasoline only current car simply by managing low speed acceleration and running by filtering the power through a battery. Virtually all other hybrids exhibit similar efficiencies.

I personally see future serial hybrids as the bridge to larger mainstream acceptance of EV's. Eventually the ICE component will shrink to irrelevance
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post #77 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 11:06 AM
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Weight is the enemy on this forum. Once you drive an Elise at the limit, or get scared white in a "&" there is no way 4000+++++lbs can provide the same thrill.

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post #78 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-25-2019, 10:06 AM
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Eh,
Ill keep my Viper and my H1.

Gil breaks this discussion out at least once a year.
I remember he wanted me to turn my H1 into some program where they give you a few bucks to crush your old, polluting vehicle.


Im not sure the impact from a few weekend vehicles here and there will do in the grand scheme of things, or a few people removing a cat or 2, but a noble cause i guess.
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post #79 of 79 (permalink) Old 04-01-2019, 12:45 PM
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Ban baked beans!!!!!!!!!!!

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