"peak" car ownership is happening world over - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 05:59 AM
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Someone mentioned the keyword in this whole argument.....”option”. I still & always will want the OPTION to drive my sports/fun car.
Yeah, it seems that getting fewer people to drive will be mostly a self-resolving problem in the US at least. In other places (China, India) a car is a sign that you're no longer a prole - a big status symbol. It's going to be a lot harder to persuade those folks that they don't need cars.

One thing I will admit to considering with the Elise - it does seem to be a good platform for an electric conversion if I have to go that route (they ban combustion engines). I can see why the Tesla roadster is based on it.
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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 06:55 AM Thread Starter
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In cities (Large ones) a car is a liability already. Honestly, when you think about it, cars do eat up a large proportion of income. If transportation could be offered more economically, ( Think trains in Europe) then I could see ownership dropping quite a bit more.

I suppose with all macro trends, time tells all tales...

I know for certain in Bartertown where I live, once emission testing happens, ( Not sure why we are still allowed exemption)

our beloved madmax car scene with 240Z's with blown v8's is over...

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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 03:22 AM
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I know for certain in Bartertown where I live, once emission testing happens, ( Not sure why we are still allowed exemption)

our beloved madmax car scene with 240Z's with blown v8's is over...
Meh, I had modified cars in AZ and Cali. Places where pre-OBD2 cars have to do a road simulation on the dyno and OBD2 cars have to be plugged into the computer. There are always ways around the testing. More accurately, there are ways to have emissions compliant cars that are modified. Cali is the worst because you have to do everything "their way", Komrade. By this I mean, that not only does it have to pass, it must look like stock and have no unapproved aftermarket parts. This is the irritating part. As long as it doesn't fail emissions, what do you care HOW we meet your standard? Could it just have anything to do with CONTROL?!?!?!? In any case there are alot of TVS cars running around in Cali.


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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 04:45 AM
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Meh, I had modified cars in AZ and Cali. Places where pre-OBD2 cars have to do a road simulation on the dyno and OBD2 cars have to be plugged into the computer. There are always ways around the testing. More accurately, there are ways to have emissions compliant cars that are modified. Cali is the worst because you have to do everything "their way", Komrade. By this I mean, that not only does it have to pass, it must look like stock and have no unapproved aftermarket parts. This is the irritating part. As long as it doesn't fail emissions, what do you care HOW we meet your standard? Could it just have anything to do with CONTROL?!?!?!? In any case there are alot of TVS cars running around in Cali.

The reason for CA strictness is simple. There is no natural life cycle for vehicles. In the NE cars have a natural attrition, rust. They are doing a simple thing, making it increasingly expensive to keep an older car on the road.

Frankly, Lotus people do not care, but people eventually give up on 500 dollar cars, meaning 78 4 door chevelles disappear, which from an environmental point of view is a good thing, and from a car enthusiast point of view, no one cares.

While I tend to agree that CA is over the top in enforcement, they are not not wrong. Go look at Mexico city and ask yourself if that level of pollution is worth it.

The infinitely vast number of people do not think so.

The reason that a anything goes, as long as it passes OBD emissions is not all ok is that OBD is a limited test, and only tests right now. It is not designed to test to EPA standards every mile.

The problem is not a few hundreds of Lotus' having non standard parts, the problem is hundreds of thousands of mega polluter cars with crap parts polluting, which is what they are trying to eliminate.


They say a very small percentage of the vehicles pollute a very large percentage of pollution:

https://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/12/...llution-study/

Your average lightly modded Lotus is not the problem, but even in this community you see people removing cats for no reason, removing evap because it is a nuisance.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 04:22 AM
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The reason for CA strictness is simple. There is no natural life cycle for vehicles. In the NE cars have a natural attrition, rust. They are doing a simple thing, making it increasingly expensive to keep an older car on the road.

Frankly, Lotus people do not care, but people eventually give up on 500 dollar cars, meaning 78 4 door chevelles disappear, which from an environmental point of view is a good thing, and from a car enthusiast point of view, no one cares.

While I tend to agree that CA is over the top in enforcement, they are not not wrong. Go look at Mexico city and ask yourself if that level of pollution is worth it.

The infinitely vast number of people do not think so.

The reason that a anything goes, as long as it passes OBD emissions is not all ok is that OBD is a limited test, and only tests right now. It is not designed to test to EPA standards every mile.

The problem is not a few hundreds of Lotus' having non standard parts, the problem is hundreds of thousands of mega polluter cars with crap parts polluting, which is what they are trying to eliminate.


They say a very small percentage of the vehicles pollute a very large percentage of pollution:

https://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/12/...llution-study/

Your average lightly modded Lotus is not the problem, but even in this community you see people removing cats for no reason, removing evap because it is a nuisance.
I don't know that I follow your arguments. If you have a 1970 Mustang in Cali, you are only required to meet the emissions requirements of the vehicle when it was new. In the case of 1970 is zero. As the cars get old, the cost to reg and test is very, very low. If you are low income you can get an exemption for your vehicle. You have to pay X number of $$$ to make your car compliant then you are done.

My point on the OBD2 testing is that IF the government is willing to accept that as the standard that a car is compliant, then it should be good enough for all cars. However, I can see the argument that ultimately what the car emits should be the standard. OK, if the car is modified, let the customer pay $25 and get a tailpipe test.


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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 05:04 AM
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I don't know that I follow your arguments. If you have a 1970 Mustang in Cali, you are only required to meet the emissions requirements of the vehicle when it was new. In the case of 1970 is zero. As the cars get old, the cost to reg and test is very, very low. If you are low income you can get an exemption for your vehicle. You have to pay X number of $$$ to make your car compliant then you are done.

My point on the OBD2 testing is that IF the government is willing to accept that as the standard that a car is compliant, then it should be good enough for all cars. However, I can see the argument that ultimately what the car emits should be the standard. OK, if the car is modified, let the customer pay $25 and get a tailpipe test.
A 1970 Mustang has emission controls, PCV and maybe evap.

The gov't accepts the OBD test as a proxy for compliance, mods make that proxy invalid. It is not intended, nor is any test intended to actually prove the EPA or CARB specs for emissions. That is practically impossible

Most vehicles are not worth fixing, and the regulatory agencies understand that. Bad cars will not get fixed.

You don't seem to realize that most cars are uninteresting and worthless. The agencies purposefully put in the costs so that they get rightfully junked. Specialty cars, our cars, do not.

IF they did not, older cars would become paradoxically more valuable and undermine the mission of pollution controls.
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 09:30 AM
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You don't seem to realize that most cars are uninteresting and worthless. The agencies purposefully put in the costs so that they get rightfully junked. Specialty cars, our cars, do not.

IF they did not, older cars would become paradoxically more valuable and undermine the mission of pollution controls.
A cali-spec 1970 Mustang definitely has PCV and evap, and probably has an AIR system (smog pump) as well. Passing the visual inspection at least means that it (probably) won't cause photochemical smog in LA because of blow by and tank venting to atmosphere, which is most of its emissions burden as long as it's in half-decent tune.

And yes, it's all about driving the cost of non-compliance with standard up enough that it's easier to either junk the car or make it compliant than to operate non-compliant. The other thing California is all about is passing an inspection test, because eyeball time is cheaper than dyno time.

Most other states don't care as much, especially when the car crosses the mystical 25 year age boundary. At that point, they know the car is either at the very tail end of usability or is being actively maintained and is probably in better shape than most 15 year old cars on the road. They generally require a visual check, an OBDII no flags and OK check, or an idle sniffer test on OBD1 and earlier.

When I was in an I/M county in PA, the requirement was that the pre-OBD2 car pass a 2000 RPM no load sniffer test. One year - around 2006 I think, my ratty '93 Celica (now parts car) failed (high CO, HC and not much of a working cat). The solution I was offered by the shop was to buy an intake system cleaning service (a BG cleaner sprayed into the throttle body) which, (what a shock) was just expensive enough to trip the 'you spent enough money trying to be compliant, so you can have the 'I tried and failed' sticker flag'.

I'm a former vehicle emissions scientist and pretty good mechanic. It would be kind of embarrassing if I couldn't get the (mechanically decent, if well worn) car to pass a no-load sniffer test. Besides, it was mostly stock, so likely not a lot of work.

I declined the offer, took it home, changed the oil, checked the PCV system (was fine), retarded the ignition timing 5 deg (2 deg ATDC), and brought it back on Monday. It passed easily. I went home, advanced the timing back to 3 deg BTDC (spec is TDC), which I found to be the best power sweet spot on that car, and drove it for another year.

Honestly, if your pre OBD car is unmodified and doesn't burn huge amounts of oil, it's not that hard to get it to pass a sniffer or even an I/M 250. You just have to know how to do it. I chalk it up to consumer culture and a lack of scholarly skills.
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 11:40 AM
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transportation costs are nothing compared to the cost of housing in this dumb*ss state of CA. If I lived in AZ or TN, the housing would be 1/3 the cost.

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