Best of all worlds: BWR Non-Adjustable Penske Shocks with Intro pricing! - Page 9 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #161 of 185 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LionZoo View Post
Fred, while it's true that bumpstops limit motion and in theory, if your dampers are valved for one spring rate, you get best performance without stops, what is to stop component on component contact within the damper? Is it just the rubber O-ring? That sounds like very little margin.

Keep in mind, a good dumpstop isn't just an on off component. They ramp up in force so that the jerk from relative movement of the components of the damper isn't too high. A controlled landing if you will. With the O-ring, it's basically on or off.
LZ,

What stops the component-to-component contact within the damper is good design. These shocks can be fully compressed so that the eyelet bottoms out on the outside of the shock cap before anything inside contacts.

You are correct that a good bump stop isn't an on/off component, it has its own additive spring rate. What is the spring rate on those stops? 100lb/in? 200? It will theoretically provide increasing resistance to shaft motion, but in a very short space the rate goes up exponentially until it goes solid. Attached is a graph that shows some bump stop spring rates with distance. These are longer. Remember, when you cut a spring it increases in stiffness.

Additionally, at a point above the dynamic load of that corner of the car, the force will start to raise the entire car corner, not just the wheel and tire. This results in a jacking force to the opposite corner. Handling at this point is less than optimum!

Remember, the extra 1" without a bump stop provides linear handling response in that region making the car more predictable. Additionally, it slows down the upward motion of wheel the whole way. The shocks and shock mounts are very tough and if they pound together on occasion, it isn't a problem. I've done it hundreds of times on the XP car. If you want to run stops to protect the fender liners without sacrificing road manners, that's totally fine, it just comes at the expense of predictability at the limit of travel.
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post #162 of 185 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 12:12 PM
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I'm running FCM 36mm stops cut down to about 20mm: http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/iga...6_46_NA_63.JPG

I understand your motivation to increase the linear region of the coilovers as much as possible and it's definitely a good idea for certain applications. Let's just say this isn't my first time developing/modifying dampers (or coilovers as the kids like to say).

I understand that by adding stops, I'm taking away effective travel length. That's a tradeoff that I'm willing to accept, especially since it's effective travel length that I'm not even using. Remember those O-rings? They suggest that I'd only be using the stops on one of the dampers, and probably in one very specific corner. The rest of the dampers wouldn't even touch the stops in my normal usage. In effect, I regard every stop except the one on the front left as an just being along for the ride, and maybe only being used if I hit a monster pothole. Having said that, I'm not going to suggest that everyone else add stops to their suspension.

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post #163 of 185 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 12:16 PM
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By the way, I really appreciate how much travel there is in these Penskes. Travel is awesome and is something that quite a few people tend to ignore, but travel ultimately makes everything better.

(Then again... I might be biased as I'm the guy that built his own coilovers for his RX-8 because nothing else on the market had the travel that I wanted.)

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post #164 of 185 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Lion! That shock travel was hard fought since it is tight in there! I think we're on the same page. I think your use makes sense in your case and you understand what is going on having built your own dampers. However as a supplier of parts, we understand that most folks don't have that level of experience. As with all things internet, there will be some folks that will grab hold, vomit on the keyboard, and run around "OHMYGAWD!!!! THERE ARE NO BUMP STOPS! THE CAR WILL EXPLODE!

And oh that makes for fun times!

Rather it was a very deliberate, engineered choice for all the other reasons mentioned.

Enjoy!


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post #165 of 185 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 12:41 PM
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It is extremely tough designing a product for sale as you're essentially trying to take all the requirements that anyone buying your product could possibly have and then putting together a package that would address all of them. It's a much easier challenge for me, as I'm only building for myself!

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post #166 of 185 (permalink) Old 12-19-2015, 09:34 PM
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Finally had a chance to have a real go at the bumpstops as I was back running Streets of Willow in the clockwise direction. Result: No rubbing! Better yet, the handling behavior is just as good as it was before, I could get on the throttle just as hard out of the bowl as before, and you can't even feel the stops engaging.

Also, the Penskes really do make the car feel like a magic carpet ride. There's still more time left in the car and it'll come from the high speed sections. The car is so well behaved that the limit in some of the scarier high speed sections (namely Turn 1 and the Chicane) is higher than my bravery. Where the stock Bilsteins would definitely not be able to handle some of the speeds that I'm running through there, the Penskes just take it with a shrug. I can go faster, but the memory of my friend spinning off at 1 right in front of me and another car rolling through the Chicane is currently holding me back.

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post #167 of 185 (permalink) Old 07-31-2016, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting little wheel and tire measurement exercise here which working on the new NA options.....https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/i...5/#post5058929

Essentially, although I believe the Penske NAs came out fantastic on this car and I have no desire to change them, I had an idea.

Essentially, I designed the NAs to be the best dual purpose Non-Adjustable shock for the Lotus, bar none. It is more comfortable on the street and better on the track. However, what about the cruising crowd or the daily driver very occassional track crowd? I use our Maroon 2005 as a daily driver car. What about the most comfortable Elige possible? So I set some new parameters:

1. Daily driving comfort is most important. Must be far more comfortable than Base, LSS, or track pack shocks. Literally drive hundreds of miles in bliss.
2. Must still handle better than Base, LSS, or Track-Pack. Still be more responsive, more communicative, more direct without harshness.

Happy to announce "Mission Accomplished!" Re-discover the sheer joy of driving all over again. Revised spring rates + bump stops in a kit form for current NA customers and will be an option on the website for new NA customers. Gone is the snap oversteer from the LSS or the crash/bang. Controlled, never floaty, supple, and communicative. Details here and on our website soon!


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post #168 of 185 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 04:30 AM
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Revised spring rates + bump stops in a kit form for current NA customers and will be an option on the website for new NA customers.
I think someone finally gets it for street driven cars.

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post #169 of 185 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 06:03 AM
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The BWR Penske D/As with high spring rates are already significantly better on the street than the stock Bilsteins, so I can only imagine the streetability of the new kit is impressive.
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post #170 of 185 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 06:15 AM
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The BWR Penske D/As with high spring rates are already significantly better on the street than the stock Bilsteins,
You bet. I don't even bother to change the settings from autocross to street.

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post #171 of 185 (permalink) Old 08-01-2016, 07:11 AM
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You bet. I don't even bother to change the settings from autocross to street.
Same, the 200 mile drive up to Thunderhill was no problem on the D/As
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post #172 of 185 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 06:14 PM
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These dampers sound incredible. Penske has a fantastic reputation and I'm interested in fitting some NAs on my 05 (standard Bilstein suspension) in the near future. Any word on a future group buy or pricing deal?
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post #173 of 185 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 06:38 PM
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These dampers sound incredible. Penske has a fantastic reputation and I'm interested in fitting some NAs on my 05 (standard Bilstein suspension) in the near future. Any word on a future group buy or pricing deal?
I think you just missed the last group buy. And it sounds like it might be the last one they hold for awhile on these:

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f91/...oupbuy-381473/

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post #174 of 185 (permalink) Old 12-06-2016, 01:12 PM
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These amazing shocks make the discount from the group buy irrelevant.
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post #175 of 185 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 08:04 PM
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post #176 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 11:56 AM
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post #177 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-27-2017, 10:08 AM
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The PENSKE NA are a great aftermarket shock for a 2005 Elise.

I am waiting to hear back from BWR, as my front left shock is leaking after one year and a couple thousand street miles...
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Daily Driver 2005 Lotus Elise, Storm Titanium, LSS Wheels, Toyo R1Rs, 2Bular exhaust (**) , DS Brace rear toe links, Penske non-adjustable shocks(**), Black Powerflex Anti-Roll bar bushings.

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post #178 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-28-2017, 07:49 AM
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Pmth95,
All four of my Penske NA's eventually sprang leaks over the course of 9 months or so after installation. Eventually Fred had me send them directly to Penske to save some turn-around time. Apparently, the shock shafts on the NA's came from a new supplier and utilized a new coating that caused some unexpected interaction with the rubber seals. Since repair, they have been rock-solid, which is now approaching 2 years, IIRC.

BWR has always supplied the ultimate in customer service and they cannot be faulted for these problems. And I can also say that Penske responded by building the shocks immediately upon receiving them. In one case, they arrived at the Penske shop in the morning and were out the door that same afternoon.

I hope this helps you out, and if I can answer any other questions, you can PM me or send an email at jeffbrugger (at) comcast (dot) net

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post #179 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-28-2017, 10:51 AM
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Pmth95,
All four of my Penske NA's eventually sprang leaks over the course of 9 months or so after installation. Eventually Fred had me send them directly to Penske to save some turn-around time. Apparently, the shock shafts on the NA's came from a new supplier and utilized a new coating that caused some unexpected interaction with the rubber seals. Since repair, they have been rock-solid, which is now approaching 2 years, IIRC.

BWR has always supplied the ultimate in customer service and they cannot be faulted for these problems. And I can also say that Penske responded by building the shocks immediately upon receiving them. In one case, they arrived at the Penske shop in the morning and were out the door that same afternoon.

I hope this helps you out, and if I can answer any other questions, you can PM me or send an email at jeffbrugger (at) comcast (dot) net

Jeff B
I will be sending the shock back to BWR. I the mean time I re-installed the OEM shocks in the front.

Patrick

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post #180 of 185 (permalink) Old 07-08-2017, 06:38 PM
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Fred from BWR had me send the two front shocks directly back to Penske (minus the springs) where they changed the shafts. Just got around to re-installing them and all is back to normal. Great service from BWR and Penske. I'll keep an eye on the rear ones.

Daily Driver 2005 Lotus Elise, Storm Titanium, LSS Wheels, Toyo R1Rs, 2Bular exhaust (**) , DS Brace rear toe links, Penske non-adjustable shocks(**), Black Powerflex Anti-Roll bar bushings.

Hard Top with no headliner (*), Soft top (also with no headliner), Snorkel delete, Washer Fluid reservoir delete, smaller center rear view mirror (vintage VW), Kemmler Air2Gel refoamed seats (**)
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