BMW Wheel Bolts = Perfect Fit! And they are Black! - Page 8 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #141 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
FWIW, I've been using the BMW black bolts on several Elise/Exige cars and have had no problems with their ability to "hold" torque. Of course, I always re-check the torque within 50 miles of first installing wheels and new wheels need to be checked a second time after an additional 100 miles or so.
Arrr, o' course, Jack has so many sets o' wheels, that he ne'er has a set on long enough t' suffer the curse o' the loose bolt... Aye, me parrot concurs.

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post #142 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serebo1
Arrr, o' course, Jack has so many sets o' wheels, that he ne'er has a set on long enough t' suffer the curse o' the loose bolt... Aye, me parrot concurs.
Are you this guy?
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post #143 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 12:44 PM
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Thanks Jack. Hey, I hope to join you at an event sometime this fall/winter.

-Dave
Look forward to it -- probably have a BW event for 12 cars in late October.

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post #144 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 12:52 PM
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Stan got banned? WTF????

Edit-sorry, just got caught up. Still pissed though.

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post #145 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 12:56 PM
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Are you this guy?
That's a scurvy dog! I'm not that squiffy son of a biscuit eater!

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post #146 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 12:58 PM
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Arrr, o' course, Jack has so many sets o' wheels, that he ne'er has a set on long enough t' suffer the curse o' the loose bolt... Aye, me parrot concurs.
Alan,

They don't call me the Imelda Marcos of wheels for nothing.

Where have you been??? I miss you.

We need to do lunch soon on the Westside -- my treat. Call me when you have time.
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post #147 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 01:09 PM
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Alan,

They don't call me the Imelda Marcos of wheels for nothing.

Where have you been??? I miss you.

We need to do lunch soon on the Westside -- my treat. Call me when you have time.
Argh! Miss you too! Been so busy - went from zero to three projects pretty much overnight and there's no time left in the day. Fortunatly, I have ET open at all times in the background! I do, however, need to eat occasionally. Love to have lunch later in the week or early next. Name the time and place and I'll be there! If we do it next week, there's a chance my car will be back...

Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
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post #148 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 01:14 PM
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Argh! Miss you too! ...Love to have lunch later in the week or early next. Name the time and place and I'll be there! If we do it next week...
I'm a little confused. Is this thread about lug bolts or some other sort of screw?

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post #149 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 01:22 PM
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I'm a little confused. Is this thread about lug bolts or some other sort of screw?
Don't worry, D, often young men are a "little confused," although, if you had that picture on your desktop, it sounds like you're figuring things out...

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post #150 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Look forward to it -- probably have a BW event for 12 cars in late October.
Can't get out 'til Nov, so I'll look for anything coming up later. Ever do anything at Streets. That place is fun (big missing pieces of racing surface notwithstanding). Big W is also fun.

You guys ever hit Pahrump or LV? I'd like to try those sometime.
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post #151 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 01:24 PM
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Don't worry, D, often young men are a "little confused," although, if you had that picture on your desktop, it sounds like you're figuring things out...
Doh!
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post #152 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 01:45 PM
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Getting this thread back on topic, I've had the black BMW bolts for some time now. I did have one instance of a bolt falling out, but I believe that was an instance of improper torque application. In every other case, the bolts have always been fine, or, if anything, they managed to over torque themselves! But perhaps this is just as bad...

Matte Black, Sport, Touring, ***** intake (TBA), RAC Mono wheels, Painted Shift knob, smoked turn signals, Alpine SPS 6.5" rear speakers, MB Quarts, JVC Nav, Starshield, LBH exhaust, Dpic perf. gauge, Custom true HID projectors, GUT wing and splitter, Mesh side pods, Sector111 harness bar and 4-point harness, Lotus Sport Ohlins double-adjustable suspension, swaybar, '06 LED tailights, Toda flywheel, Lotusport interior.
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post #153 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 01:50 PM
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Bolted joints loosen for a number of reasons. With a properly designed bolted joint, the major causes of preload relaxation (bolts loosening) are embedment and vibration.

Embedment is local compressive yielding (material is compressed and permanently deformed) at a microscopic level. This yielding occurs due to very small inconsistencies between all the mating surfaces of the bolt and the parts being bolted together and where the threads on the bolt mate with the threads of the nut or threaded hole after applying the torque.

Preload Relaxation due to embedment occurs in the first few hours of use after initially applying the required torque to the bolts. This is why bolted joints should be re-torqued after use. Loosening due to vibration occurs at longer periods of use, after the bolts are re-torqued.

Black Oxide coated bolts (the coating on the BMW wheel bolts), on the average, provide a lower coefficient of friction than a bolt with a Zinc coating. This means a Black Oxide bolt is more likely to loosen due to vibration. Also, since the coefficient of friction of Black Oxide is less, the preload on the joint would be (on the average) higher if the same torque is used in a joint spec'd for a Zinc coated bolt. If this is not accounted for by lowering the torque value, an increase in preload force will increase the amount of embedment when setting the initial torque.

If the conical taper of the BMW bolt is not exactly the same as the original Lotus bolt, additional deformation at the mating surfaces of the bolt/wheel interface could result. If the variance between the two conical tapers is slight, it will take time before the stress gets redistributed due to plastic deformation (i.e. it may take some time for the joint to "settle in") another possible cause of initial preload relaxation.

The above should be considered if someone was to substitute wheel bolts for a car and would require many calculations, measurements and thorough testing. I can understand Lotus' official stance that using anything other than the stock Lotus wheel bolts is not approved. However, there is nothing wrong with the trial and error method and there are enough people using the black oxide coated BMW bolts to get good feedback for street and track/autocross use. Listing the torque value used, wheel brand/model and how often torque was re-checked would be useful.

No matter which wheel bolts/stud kit is use, it is a good idea to re-torque the bolts after 50 miles or so of street use. I also think it would be wise to check the wheel bolt torque before every track/autocross session.

Gary M
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Last edited by milcher; 09-19-2006 at 05:32 PM.
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post #154 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 03:51 PM
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Gary has provided the answer/s.
I thought about the friction and the taper. Seven more years of college and I would have been able to convey this information properly.


Thanks Gary!
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post #155 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 04:53 PM
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I have one question about the BMW bolts that are loosening. Are they actually factory BMW bolts or aftermarket substitutes? Is it possible that it's the aftermarket ones are no of sufficient quality?




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post #156 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
I have one question about the BMW bolts that are loosening. Are they actually factory BMW bolts or aftermarket substitutes? Is it possible that it's the aftermarket ones are no of sufficient quality?
Good question. Like I've said, no problems due to the bolts' fault, and mine are OEM BMW.

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post #157 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super D
Not to interrupt, but there must be a logical explanation for the problem. These bolts have been sold to some intelligent fellas, and I'd be interested in hearing from some here.
Stop interupting Dave, we are trying to get to the bottom of this!

So does the loosening of the black lug bolts happen on both the sport and touring wheels?

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post #158 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-19-2006, 05:07 PM
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Listen up here matie, ya ferget ta tourque ya wheel and it be following ya down the road, and ya know what road youis travel lead to davie and his boy.Stay the course.
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post #159 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2006, 04:45 AM
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So does the loosening of the black lug bolts happen on both the sport and touring wheels?[/QUOTE]

I've had the Rota Slipstreams with BMW black lugs since late June. I drove about 300 miles to VIR, then re-torqued the bolts before a driving school. I
re-torqued after each of four sessions, and most of the bolts did need a little
tightening each time. After returning home, none of the bolts needed additional adjustment, and have not required any since then. I'm not too surprised that the wheel / bolt combination needs a bedding-in period. So, just think of it as routine maintenance.
Jim

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post #160 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2006, 05:58 AM
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I've used the black oxide coated BMW lug bolts (bought through the local dealer) for about the last ~16 months now, with about a dozen track days on them. Torqued to about 85 foot pounds. The first few track events, a few of the bolts seemed to loosen a bit after a session, but now they stay tight just fine.

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