Little clunks in steering - NOT the steering rack thread - Page 9 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #161 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-20-2012, 08:24 AM
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Well, i torqued every dam bolts i could see and just by dropping the car from the jack i could hear the clunk. Just by pushing on the front wing i could hear it. With my friend under the car, the closest we could feel the sound is from the tab bushings... But i suspect the steering rack, really tough to be sure 100%.

Temperature is not a concern in my case, hot or cold, i have the clunk!

Last edited by swd; 07-22-2012 at 06:23 AM. Reason: aa
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post #162 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-27-2012, 06:33 AM
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So my steering had some strange feedback... like a clunking on bumps and in slight back and forth turns. There was no play in the steering so I figured I would give it a shot.

I found the that each bolt was only torqued to less than 10ft-lbs where it is supposed to be about 20ftlbs! Tightened everything up and went for a drive! Guess what... IT WORKED! The car actually feel better than before and feels way more tight. It has transformed the car!

I would recommend this to anyone who has any problems! It is VERY easy to do too. It took maybe 2 hours since I was taking my time and going slow. In the future it could be done in an hour.

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post #163 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-27-2012, 10:42 AM
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Could someone reference every single TQ Spec for the bolts in the front suspension (I plan on using Blue Locktite if that matters)? I did see a select list of TQ specs here - but looking for the complete listing if available. Going to jump at this over the weekend & report back here.
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post #164 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-27-2012, 02:44 PM
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RoadDad posted them on the second page.

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post #165 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 11:06 AM
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ChrisH THANK YOU!!

After your post I checked every bolt and they were all tight except for the mounting bolts you mentioned. I had 3 loose bolts. 2 slightly loose and 1 soo loose it was spinning... I was getting the clunk through the steering rack so I checked the u joints as well but all were tight. Clunking is now gone and I don't need a new rack but I still want one for the quicker ratio

This should be a sticky or put in the reference section IMO
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post #166 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-29-2012, 10:11 PM
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Hi Guys,

Went ahead & did this gig today - probably a total of 2.5 hours because I took my time & the first attempt on the driver side was the longest; gathering all the tools & squeezing in there.

Here is my report. Can anyone comment on my "Next Action Steps" in bold below?

Also, check out my shop experience on the "Side Notes" section. For the amount of money Ive been paying for labor - I find this unacceptable...
---


Pre Status:

Newly replaced Steering rack with TitanQR (less than 1 week old)
Newly replaced Steering Track Rod Ends (less than 1 week old)

Issue:

Clunking heard & felt on front left (driver side), heard while driving over rough surfaces but most pronounced when full lock, right turn, slow (1-2mph) over a driveway/2" step. The right side will never clunk, but the left will always.

It has slightly improved upon replacing steering rack but still present.
---


Lotus Front Suspension Service: 072912

Pre-Condition Driver Side:

Damper Brackets:
Driver Side Top = Little loose around, 1/8th turn
Driver Side Bottom = Little loose around, 1/5 turn

Upper Wishbone Pivot Bolt = Little lose on the inside, towards rear
Lower Wishbone Pivot Bolt = Good

Upper Swivel Joint to Steering Arm = Little loose around, 1/4 turn
Steering Arm to Hub Carrier = Good
Track Rod End to Steering Arm - 1/10 turn

Hub Bearing Unit to Hub Carrier = Good
Brake Caliper to Hub Carrier = Good

Anti-Roll Bar Rubber Bush Mounting Clamps = Couldn't get to the allen bolts with diffuser attached
Anti-Roll Bar Drop Links Top = Good
Anti-Roll Bar Drop Links Bottom = Good


Post:

Torque Settings: Nm

Damper Bracket Bolts: 18 lb/ft or 25 NM
Upper and lower wishbone pivot bolts 45
Upper swivel joint to steering arm 55
Lower swivel joint to plinth 55
Steering arm to hub carrier - 10.9 grade 68
Track rod end to steering arm 30
Damper to lower wishbone 45
Damper to top anchor bracket 45
Damper anchor bracket to chassis 25
Hub bearing unit to hub carrier 90
Brake caliper to hub carrier 45
Anti-roll bar rubber bush mounting clamps 25 (Could not do)
Anti-roll bar drop links 45

Lubricated Anti-Roll Bar Bushing Mount Clamps
Used thread locker where applicable
Marked all bolts/nuts with yellow marker
---


Pre-Condition Passenger:

Damper Brackets:
Passenger Side Top = little loose around, 1/5th turn
Passenger Side Bottom = little loose around, 1/5 turn

Upper Wishbone Pivot Bolts = Little lose on the inside towards rear
Lower Wishbone Pivot Bolts = Good

Upper Swivel Joint to Steering Arm = Loose by 1/2 turn
Steering Arm to Hub Carrier = Good
Track Rod End to Steering Arm - 1/10 turn loose

Hub Bearing Unit to Hub Carrier = Good
Brake Caliper to Hub Carrier = Good

Anti-Roll Bar Rubber Bush Mounting Clamps = Couldn't get to the allen bolts with diffuser attached
Anti-Roll Bar Drop Links Top = 1/10 turn loose
Anti-Roll Bar Drop Links Bottom = Good


Post:

Torque Settings: Nm

Damper Bracket Bolts: 18 lb/ft or 25 NM
Upper and lower wishbone pivot bolts 45
Upper swivel joint to steering arm 55
Lower swivel joint to plinth 55
Steering arm to hub carrier - 10.9 grade 68
Track rod end to steering arm 30
Damper to lower wishbone 45
Damper to top anchor bracket 45
Damper anchor bracket to chassis 25
Hub bearing unit to hub carrier 90
Brake caliper to hub carrier 45
Anti-roll bar rubber bush mounting clamps 25 (Could not do)
Anti-roll bar drop links 45

Lubricated Anti-Roll Bar Bushing Mount Clamps
Used thread locker where applicable
Marked all bolts/nuts with yellow marker
---


Current Status:

Seems like the front suspension is a little bit tighter/more rigid overall, but not dramatically.

The issue with the front left (driver) side suspension, when the tire hits a 2" step on the incline of the driveway is still present.

---


Next Action Steps:

1. Check on upper & lower wishbone bushings - possibly replace all (upgrade to delrin or spherical).

2. Check front driver side damper, remove spring & check for any play in the shaft/leaks.

3. Check all front suspension balljoints (possibly replace all with new)

4. Wheel bearing?

5. Remove front underside panel to access the Allen Bolts that are holding down the sway bar bracket & TQ to spec

---


Side Note:

Found this today when I started working on the car:

Shop did not Torque Down the driver side rear wheel bolts properly - One has been lost while driving!!!! WTF!?

Picked up the car last week from the shop & they worked on the rear driver side wheel - they are the last to touch these bolts & I have only driven around 60mi since picking up the car.

Upon inspection of the remaining 3 bolts on the wheel, 2/3 were under torqued & loose.

Also to note my frustrations, I had V2 arms installed maybe a month prior & as you can see from my work today, some of the bolts were not TQ to spec.

To further note, when I picked up the car from a BOE Rear Tie Rod (Full version) install & alignment, the jam nut which tightens the inboard spherical joint to the rod was loose (passenger side) - I noticed this as soon as I got home from the shop & inspected. Needed to go back later that week to have them fix this as the diffuser was in the way of accessing this jam nut.

Geez…lack of diligence I say for the frequency of suspension work performed over a short period of time.

Going to need to spend more time/travel from my work week schedule to go back to the shop for them to give me a replacement bolt...
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post #167 of 282 (permalink) Old 08-01-2012, 09:02 AM
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Is there play in the wheel when you have it on jack stands? can you make it clunk by pulling on it?

Also I'm not sure exactly which bolt you are referring to, but the bolt that was 1/2 turn loose is a strong candidate for replacement. By 1/2 turn there was probably very little tension on the bolt, and it was probably taking sideways loads rather than relying on the clamping force.

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post #168 of 282 (permalink) Old 08-02-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by fsparv View Post
Is there play in the wheel when you have it on jack stands? can you make it clunk by pulling on it?

Also I'm not sure exactly which bolt you are referring to, but the bolt that was 1/2 turn loose is a strong candidate for replacement. By 1/2 turn there was probably very little tension on the bolt, and it was probably taking sideways loads rather than relying on the clamping force.
No shake when violently wiggling the wheel side-to-side while the wheel is on the ground or up in the air. Im thinking now of replacing my balljoints (might just do this in tandem with the wishbone bushings since it will consolidate the task) & getting a stethoscope to listen to the wheel bearing; comparing it to all the other wheel bearings on the car to see if it sounds odd on the driver front side.

For my application, that is the attachment of the balljoint on the left side of the arm in the picture below where it attaches to the Wishbone:
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post #169 of 282 (permalink) Old 08-05-2012, 09:27 AM
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well, did the procedure yesterday, everything was tight. In having both wheels off I was able to confirm that it is the passenger side inner tie rod/rack failing. Looks like someone tweaked the boot, and maybe didnít tighten it down. Got a new titan QR coming next week.

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post #170 of 282 (permalink) Old 08-05-2012, 09:51 AM
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Looks like Sector 111 is selling lots of Titan QR's as of late...

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post #171 of 282 (permalink) Old 08-05-2012, 10:09 AM
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https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f91/...9/#post1768886 is a link to my faulty rack. Note it's jiggly only on the passenger side.

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post #172 of 282 (permalink) Old 11-19-2012, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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Temperature related clunk fixed

Even after all the tightening I did (see page 1 of this thread), and replacing the damper/spring units (upgraded from base to LSS units), I still had a clunk at high temperatures. Over the last couple of years, it slowly got worse, until it was happening even at moderate temperatures.

Because of the way it felt and the conditions under which it occurred, I suspected the wishbone bushings. (The steering rack and ball joints seemed tight.) But, when I had the car up on jack stands, I couldn't feel any play in the bushings when trying to move them by hand.

I finally decided to go ahead and replace the bushings. (I chose Monoball solid spherical bearings.) I started with the front left upper wishbone, and replaced both of those bushings first. That fixed the clunking problem! With just the front upper left replaced, I didn't notice any handling changes as compared to when the car was new, but the clunking was at least gone.

A few weekends later, I replaced the front left lower bushings. Then, a week later, I replaced all the right front bushings. That is when I really noticed handling changes. The handling change isn't dramatic, but I definitely like it better. The handling is smoother and more controlled. I noticed the smoothness in entering corners. I notice the greater control in particular on rough pavement, or pavement with grooves or seams going along the direction of the lane (like rain grooves or seams in lanes on freeways). The slight squirm you can get in those conditions is now gone, which gives a much greater feel of control on undersized lanes on some Los Angeles freeways, and more confidence in the car (particularly on bad lanes right next to a center divider, or undersized lanes on high speed but tightly curved freeway connector ramps). This is all consistent with less play in the bushings when lateral force is neutral.

By-the-way, solid spherical bearings do not seem to make any difference to noise and vibration in this car. The only time it might be a bit noisier is when hitting a sharp bump or hole. Don't be afraid to upgrade to hard bushings with this suspension design. There isn't any downside for street driving.

I'll be writing up some tips on installing bushings later. The instructions I found on the web left out some important and necessary tips.

I should be replacing the rear bushings over the Christmas break.

I may have caused the original damage to the bushings myself. The first time I checked the torque on all the suspension bolts (I had the car about a year) I vaguely recall that I loosened a couple of the front suspension bolts a bit and then retorqued them. However, I didn't know at the time that with the rubber bushings, you need to have weight on the suspension with the bushing bolt loose, then torque it down. (Use a jack under the lower ball joint to compress the suspension on that corner.) (You should do the same when tightening down the shock bolts, as they have rubber in their bushings.) I didn't do that, and it probably slowly tore the rubber in the bushings, which is why the clunk developed over time and temperature (rubber is more flexible at higher temperatures). I suspect I did that to the upper front left bolts because I generally start suspension and brake work on the front left corner, and the upper bolts are the easiest to reach.

Another nice thing about my new bushings is that you don't have to compress the suspension when tightening them down. They spin freely over the full range, unlike the stock rubber bushings.

Last edited by ChrisH; 11-19-2012 at 07:46 PM.
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post #173 of 282 (permalink) Old 11-22-2012, 06:20 AM
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I'm guessing that stiffer/solid bearings make sliding into a curb somewhat more likely to total your car in the same way that toe link braces do? Probably less so than the brace however.

I'm guessing that the mono balls don't require the weight for tightening since they don't compress and can't tear?

edit: oops, confused the last line of your post with your signature and didn't read it *doh*

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post #174 of 282 (permalink) Old 11-22-2012, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsparv View Post
I'm guessing that stiffer/solid bearings make sliding into a curb somewhat more likely to total your car in the same way that toe link braces do? Probably less so than the brace however.
...
The stock rubber bushings are already pretty hard, but have a little more effective play near the neutral lateral position than the solids. If you hit a curb, the extra probability of damage with a solid bushing probably isn't much larger than the stock rubber. It would have to be a pretty light tap of the curb to not cause damage even with stock bushings. One would hope that the wheel will collapse before the frame does. The key is - don't hit a curb with the wheel rim. If only the tire hits the curb, the tire provides far more cushion than either bushing type.
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post #175 of 282 (permalink) Old 11-24-2012, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
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Front suspension squeak also fixed

I forgot to mention that replacing the front bushings also fixed a squeak I was having in the front suspension. Whenever going on or off the lip of my driveway, or over a speed bump, etc., I would get a loud squeak. I had previously tried spraying silicone lube on and in various moving surfaces in the suspension, as well as in the anti-sway bar bushings. But, that didn't help. However, when I replaced the first pair of bushings on the front left upper wishbone, the squeaks went away completely (as did the clunking). So, clunking and squeaking were due to the same bad wishbone bushings.
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post #176 of 282 (permalink) Old 03-07-2013, 06:05 AM
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Smile Steering intermittent play & slow speed rough road clunk is all fixed!

One more happy guy after tighten damper bracket bolts

I tighten the front right damper bracket bolts following recommendation in Thread in Page 1 today.

Tighten it by 3/4 turn to reach about 20Nm both front right bolt. Need to use 2 spanner with size 13 during tightening. When reinstall damper, i also tighten the damper bolt to 40Nm.

Drove it out and can feel tighter steering feel, the intermittent play is gone.

No more clunk on the road that used to make it clunk. (Before this it clunk on the same road with worn off road surface; rough surface; not uneven; not pot hole. When driving in slow speed. The clunk is like 2-3 Hz.)

Road feel improve.

Thanks
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post #177 of 282 (permalink) Old 03-08-2013, 10:13 PM
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Damper bracket bolt can be loosen again

After 50km drive with some horrible multi low speed bump strip, the intermittent clunk is back.

Taken out the damper to check the damper bracket bolt, found that it loose again. This time, i unbolt the 2 bracket bolts and take out the bracket to check. The chasis bolt hole is slightly in oval shape due to the bolt movement, i guess, with some trace of aluminium debri around the bolt hold extruded out to the mating surface. With the uneven mating surface, i think the clamping friction between the mating surface suffer and tend to slide and cause clunk.

I use sand paper to grind the aluminium debri to make sure a smooth surface and clean up all other dirt found on the mating surfaces.

The original bolt looks ok but since it is out, I decided to change new bolt. Only can get M8x1.25x25mm metric 12.9 bolt with hex cap head from local store. 10.9 is not common. Use back the ori nut and washer. Sand paper clean the washer to remove any dirt. Tighten the bolt to 28Nm although the 12.9 can be torque to 40Nm (just play safe here since 12.9 is not as good to fight corrosion at its strength limit).

Driven out the the car and go through the usual speed bump strip, the clunk gone again.

Hope I do not come back to this thread to update for similar clunk!

If someone has used the 12.9 bolt and have adverse effect, please cautious me..
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post #178 of 282 (permalink) Old 03-09-2013, 02:08 AM Thread Starter
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I replaced my bolts with class 10.9 two years ago (30,000 miles ago), and torqued them (dry) to 26 ft-lbs (35 Nm), which is about the class 10.9 rated torque. I have checked them a few times since, and they have not loosened. I recommend that the next time you take off the dampers, make the bracket bolts tighter. The torque you used wasn't all that much higher than the stock class 8.8 bolts. If you are worried about corrosion resistance, online order bolts with better corrosion resistance (for example, zinc plated) well ahead of when you do the work. See post 14 of this thread for zinc plated torque.
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post #179 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-14-2013, 03:34 PM
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Had this rattle in my car over bumps and slight imperfections in the road. Could feel it very pronounced through the steering wheel.

Found my driver side upper ball joint nut only finger tight. Tightened the nut and the noise was gone.
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post #180 of 282 (permalink) Old 07-18-2013, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
I forgot to mention that replacing the front bushings also fixed a squeak I was having in the front suspension. Whenever going on or off the lip of my driveway, or over a speed bump, etc., I would get a loud squeak. I had previously tried spraying silicone lube on and in various moving surfaces in the suspension, as well as in the anti-sway bar bushings. But, that didn't help. However, when I replaced the first pair of bushings on the front left upper wishbone, the squeaks went away completely (as did the clunking). So, clunking and squeaking were due to the same bad wishbone bushings.
Is your steering bumping still gone? I believe I have exactly the same issue, small bumping in the steering, noticeable while moving slowly and when the car is warm and the rubbery squeal noise while going down my driveway curb. I want to make sure this fixed your issue before buying new bushings.
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