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post #61 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-13-2010, 07:03 AM
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Thanks! Do you have a pic of the backside of the luggage tray to show how much of it you have covered in damplifier? Thanks!
Sadly, no. It was getting late and I got lazy... I mainly put a sizable piece over the central portion (the one with the ridges) and a couple of small strips on the sides with the speaker mounts.

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Did you guys just the dampening material to the fiberglass portion of the firewall right behind the seats? Did it it considering it is not right on the metail behind it?
Sorry, having a hard time parsing this... Could you clarify wrt. the pic above? Thanks!
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post #62 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-13-2010, 07:09 AM
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BTW: Drove to New Orleans over the weekend and was *very* glad I put all that insulation in. Doing an (indicated) 80 for hours on end was no problem but I think it would have been without it.

<rant>
PS: What they call pavement in NOLA is considerably worse than here in Houston. Absolutely atrocious... And I thought Houston roads were bad... Even where there's no pot holes the size of an Elise, it's just horrible...
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post #63 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-13-2010, 08:12 AM
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Sorry, having a hard time parsing this... Could you clarify wrt. the pic above? Thanks!
Serves me right for trying to type after I took a sleeping pill!

I was asking if the dampening film helped when you placed it in the upper fiberglass portion of the firewall? I didn't think the stuff worked unless it was placed directly on the metal below.

Thanks!
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post #64 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-13-2010, 10:54 AM
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Well, I think it does *something*... Mine already had one of those rock hard Lotus damper sheets on the central portion where the alarm sensor is (the panel with the 'X'). So they must think that piece vibrates. The other ones on the sides are debatable, but I think they are large enough to start vibrating. Since I put better speakers in, as well, I wanted to make sure nothing in there has a chance of resonating...

Hope this helps...
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post #65 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-13-2010, 11:57 AM
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I rode in Zuspiel's car today and it is a noticable difference. My car sounds like a 82 Oldmobile with 42 dollars worth of nickels in a metal cupholder compared to his as it goes over a bump. I think I'm putting at least part of these on my list for winter projects.

And I got to tell ya, having two Lotus' at lunch parked next to each other creates a bit of a parade as people slow down to look...

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post #66 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-13-2010, 12:37 PM
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True enough about the parade Guess it didn't help that they were both black... loki's was way shinier, though...

Riding in his car, I was positively surprised by the lack of obnoxious vibration from the manly mounts. I'm contemplating those now...
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post #67 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 06:38 PM
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Has anyone ever heard of "eDead" products? They have a special promotion right now for 20% off with the code "silentnight"
Elemental Designs: Car Stereo, Home Speakers, Electronics

Not really sure the differences between eDead45, eDead80 and eDeadn Teklight - can you answer OP?
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post #68 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-15-2010, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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cheungms,

Basically there are 3 basic commonly used products for sound insulation, and most manufactures produce a variant on the same theme.

1) Vibration dampeners - These are typically made of butyl rubber or asphalt based products with a constraining layer which is typically aluminum. The ideal setup is for the constraining layer to be the same thickness and material as the underlying panel that you are trying do deaden the resonance in. For practical reasons most companies simply use aluminum because it is light, cheap, and readily available. I would AVOID asphalt based products because they have a tendency to smell, and can melt and seep out. But most companies now seem to have moved to the butyl rubber products now anyway.

2) Foams open/closed/mixed open closed varieties - These work well for several things, they help tremendously with helping your AC work better (and heat if you have to live somewhere cold ), but from a sound perspective they work really well for high frequency sounds and as decouplers to prevent direct mechanical sound transmission from a panel to the mass loaded vinyl (MLV) to help the MLV work more efficiently. Best thing about foams is they are light, the bad thing is that for low frequency sounds they are not very efficient at all.

3) Mass loaded vinyl - This is the major work horse in sound deadening. The downside is that it is heavy, but it has to be to work. The thicker and denser (i.e. heavier) it is the greater the ability do deaden sound. This will knock out sound pretty much across the spectrum.

These are the only ones I'm going to detail here but there are some other products that have variable properties for different applications, and if you want to look them up there are coatings, foils, and heat shielding products that can help. Probably the only real relevant one is a good heat shield with sound isolation properties if you are willing to do some real off-clam work.

Also, some products combine more than one of these such as Luxury Liner Pro which is a MLV and foam decoupler.

So with this background we can look at each of these products you listed.

E-Dead 45 is basically a butyl rubber product with an overlying foil, just based on the description this sounds a lot like your typical dampener material similar to damplifier and dynamat extreme. Unfortunately on their site I do not see the thickness of the constraining layer (foil) specified, so it is hard to compare directly to the others. Basically thicker butyl and thicker foil = more efficient but more weight.

E-Dead 80 This is essentially the exact same as the E-Dead 45, but it is just thicker 80 mil instead of 45....So as above thicker = more efficient but heaver.

eDead v4 - TekLite is a neoprene closed cell foam, which is basically like overkill foam or dynaliner. Note that this is only foam, no MLV. This can be great for a lot of applications such as doing your doors, wheel arch liners, dashboard, etc...

I do not see any product that this company offers that has MLV incorporated into it, and they do not have a separate MLV product. I would strongly urge you to use an MLV based product at least on the firewall and bulkhead, as you will lose a huge amount of efficiency without it. For everything else you could get away using the eDead v4 - TekLite foam probably. See the first post for how to use the dampener products, they really have a specific application for which they work best.

A couple of things to consider. First, adding any sort of mass will have sound deadening properties, but the goal is really efficiency for weight. That is why I recommend the Dampener covering the center 25% percent of the panel (which gives you the most bang for added weight) - with foam decoupler overtop - with MLV on top. There are several products that incorporate the decoupling foam and MLV into one.

Another thing to consider with sound products is that they are heavy, and some companies will try and make significant profit on their shipping to make up for lower "cost" on their products, so make sure the shipping is reasonable. Remember this stuff is on the bigger and heavier side so shipping of 20-30 would probably be what you should expect.

I don't know if it would be more cost effective or not, but another place to look for products is home theater supply companies...I don't mean the stores that sell electronics, I mean the ones that install movie theaters in houses or other places. Guess what they use in the walls to isolate the sounds.....Decoupler foam and a MLV. You may not be able to buy small quantities, but if you can the cost will likely be much less I would expect as the car based companies are expecting low volume purchase and their prices reflect that.

2009 Saffron Yellow Elise Purist Edition - Unpurified (oem cupholder, leather tunnel cover, and black door panels), Difflow 5 element railer JR, Janspeed Stage II Exhaust, ongoing sound proofing project, kahtec blinking 3rd brake light.
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post #69 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-16-2010, 09:46 AM
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Alright, I went ahead and purchased the eDead 45 and V4 TekLite from Iowa for $71.36 (25 ft^2), which includes shipping. Pretty cost effective, as it was that price for the dampening product alone elsewhere without shipping.

Once I get it (tomorrow), I'll update with pictures, results, initial impressions, although I won't be able to test before / after since the roads here in IL are eating snow right now.

The salesman told me that the 45 is used for low frequency, V4 is for high frequency, and should be used in conjunction. I will likely use both products for the interior, then only the 45 for the undertray. If I feel this isn't enough, I will take it apart and purchase the Luxury Liner Product (or similar MLV) to further improve the sound deadening. Thanks again for breaking that down psoup!!

Any way to measure the decibels within your car without purchasing crazy-expensive equipment? I'd like to see what level of improvement from MLV vs. only dampening.

Last edited by cheungms; 12-16-2010 at 10:13 AM.
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post #70 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-16-2010, 10:07 AM
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Any way to measure the decibels within your car without purchasing crazy-expensive equipment?
sure.. you could tape foam cups over your ears, and poke holes all over them. As you drive, you plug up the holes one by one until the sound is completely muffled. Then count the holes you taped up.. that's your measurement.. then you do the same for each car....

Or you could just spend $30 to buy one of

 

...
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post #71 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-16-2010, 10:14 AM
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Ha - you know, I kinda like the idea of walking around with foam cups taped to my (giant) head...
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post #72 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-16-2010, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
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There is a decibel meter for the iPhone, no idea how remotely sensitive or accurate it is...But if you have an iPhone it's one option...I have been tempted to give that a try. Although I'm curious enough, I might just spring and buy a real decibel meter to see what the actual improvments are...

EDIT:
Ok I found one on the app store, called "Decibel", uh duh...So I sprung for a whopping $.99 and bought it...when i get a chance I'll try some before and after with it...Unfortunately I can't go all the way back down to stock since I would have to remove panels and ruin the damplifier...but I can at least see how much the Luxury Liner works...Still need to do the bulk head so I do have an area of sound seepage left to address.

2009 Saffron Yellow Elise Purist Edition - Unpurified (oem cupholder, leather tunnel cover, and black door panels), Difflow 5 element railer JR, Janspeed Stage II Exhaust, ongoing sound proofing project, kahtec blinking 3rd brake light.
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post #73 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-17-2010, 12:28 AM
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Psoup--

You gave me the kick in the butt to order a bunch of sound-deadening material myself! 20 feet^2 of Damplifier Pro and 3 9 feet^2 sheets of Luxury Liner Pro (Plus the roller and adhesive).

Any more pics of the install on your end? It would be great to both use the pictures to get excited and to get a better idea of what I'm doing!



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post #74 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-17-2010, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
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cheungms had pm'd me about using a butyl rubber product in multiple layers instead of a mass layer vinyl, and thought I would comment on it below as well.

In a nutshell "mass" between you and the sound source is one of the main ways to deaden sounds, especially low frequency sounds. You could use a butyl rubber product (damplifier, eDead, dynamat extreme etc) to a similar effect as long as the total mass was the same, but the main difference is that vinyl in a MLV is much much denser and so using butyl rubber products you will have to accomodate a much greater thickness, probably like 4x the thickness to achieve the same mass of material.

Also since they are applied directly to the panels you cannot have a foam decoupler, and without the foam decoupler you will get mechanical transmission of sound which will decrease the efficiency of the mass layer at attenuating the sound.

All of that said, the reality for many of us is that we want to "quiet" but not "silence" our cars, so depending on your personal preference you may be able to achieve a desirable level of deadening just with a dampener alone. Most dampener products I have come accross have a weight of between about 0.2-0.33 lb/sqft, versus the MLV type products usually have a weight between 1.0-1.5 lb/sqft. This means that in theory to get the same mass deadening effect using the butyl foil products you will need between about 3-7 layers depending on what butyl foil dampening product and what you are comparing it too. This of course would assume that you were comparing the butyl dampener to MLV without a foam decoupler, if there is a MLV and foam decoupler you would not expect the same performance simply based on similar mass of material used.

I look forward to hearing what your realworld experience is using multi-layer dampener with overlying foam. I'm sure with the right mix you can get a good result.

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post #75 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-17-2010, 01:23 AM Thread Starter
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Psoup--

You gave me the kick in the butt to order a bunch of sound-deadening material myself! 20 feet^2 of Damplifier Pro and 3 9 feet^2 sheets of Luxury Liner Pro (Plus the roller and adhesive).

Any more pics of the install on your end? It would be great to both use the pictures to get excited and to get a better idea of what I'm doing!
I have next week off, so I'll be playing around with some more things...I'm hoping to get the wheel wells done...maybe the airbox too while I'm at it... The big project I have out standing is to yank the passengers seat out and pull the bulkhead off and do the back firewall there...I just haven't had a stretch of time to embark on that yet.

Ali, That should be LOADS of stuff to do what you want. The only other thing you may look at is getting some Dynaliner to do inside the doors, wheel arches, dash or similar type places...

2009 Saffron Yellow Elise Purist Edition - Unpurified (oem cupholder, leather tunnel cover, and black door panels), Difflow 5 element railer JR, Janspeed Stage II Exhaust, ongoing sound proofing project, kahtec blinking 3rd brake light.
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post #76 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-17-2010, 02:53 AM
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This is a minor point, but just having put my hard top on for the first time, I was getting horrible wind squeal, but only on the right side, and only above 50ish. I loosened all the bolts, pushed the roof as far to the right, and then pulled forward as much, as possible, and problem solved (and it didn't start on the left side!). This saved me from trying to adjust the windows. I still have wind buffeting but at least not squeal. Definitely will think about deadening roof, but thinking about at least adding something to the back of the header panel, which might help since the noise which seems to be right at the leading edge of the roof.
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post #77 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-17-2010, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by psoup View Post
There is a decibel meter for the iPhone, no idea how remotely sensitive or accurate it is...But if you have an iPhone it's one option...I have been tempted to give that a try. Although I'm curious enough, I might just spring and buy a real decibel meter to see what the actual improvments are...

EDIT:
Ok I found one on the app store, called "Decibel", uh duh...So I sprung for a whopping $.99 and bought it...when i get a chance I'll try some before and after with it...Unfortunately I can't go all the way back down to stock since I would have to remove panels and ruin the damplifier...but I can at least see how much the Luxury Liner works...Still need to do the bulk head so I do have an area of sound seepage left to address.
I also found "SoundLevel Free" (free, clearly); I'll check mine when I get it all installed along with testing of prior The accuracy states "+/- 2.0 dB" from 30 dB to 110 dB
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post #78 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-17-2010, 12:12 PM
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I'll have to try that free app. Might finally have time to do the doors this WE. Then the wheelarches are on my list... I started noticing those last week.
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post #79 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-20-2010, 04:38 AM
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My sound deadening is getting here today

Psoup-- just wondering-- how much of a decrease in sound and vibration are we talking about? I want to know what to expect... will it be "a whole lot quieter" or just "yeah you can tell... it's noticeable, I guess"



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post #80 of 314 (permalink) Old 12-20-2010, 05:01 AM Thread Starter
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Well, that all depends on how much you do. It's not anywhere close to silent, just much less loud by a long shot. If you ride in a BMW or Mercedes or Bentley or something, those are quiet cars; don't expect that or you will be disappointed unless you put on some super quiet exhaust to help out even further.

Before I put in the sound deadening I could not really talk on my phone, because no one could ever hear me and it was hard to hear them, after I installed it I was on the phone with my wife about something unrelated and she said "wow, I can hear you so well now", without me even prompting her about the car.

The day after I put in the insulation I drove 320 miles to and 320 miles back from vegas, and didn't put ear plugs in at all, before that i would always use ear plugs for any drive over about 5 miles or so.

BUT......I did swap out the stock exhaust for a stage 2, which brought the noise level up some, but even then I find it does not seem as loud as the stock was without any sound dampening.

Also, I am still in the process of deadening as it where. I need to do the bulkhead, which will be in the next day or two, and plan do do overkill foam on the bulkhead plastic as well since it is so light and should help even further. I also want to add overkill to the undertray, doors, fenders...and ultimately redo the heatsheild side of the firewall with something better and insulate around the airbox. Basically there are ways to keep going and going if you want, I don't mind having noise, I just don't want it to be distracting from the experience like it was.

One of my major sources of noise right now is wind, I am still working on something for that, I may get some 1/2 lb/sqft MLV and put it inside the soft top, no foam should be neaded since it is not up against a panel so there should be no mechanical sound transmission.

Really it boils down to one of those things, that if you ride in a car with versus without it, you will notice a significant difference, but it is hard to exactly quantify that for you other than it is quieter, more pleasant, and long drives don't get that drone fatigue...

Since I can't go and undo my car, maybe you can do some sound levels before and after you install the insullation on the same road at the same speed with the same RPM....that way we can get more objective information. I was planning to pull the easily accessible LLP today and run some numbers, but I can't remove the damplifier and go all the way back down to stock so it will be less accurate of a comparison.

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