Best Hand Placement - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
CrazyDiamond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 381
Question Best Hand Placement

I am wondering about the best hand placement on one's steering wheel while AutoX and/or Racing in general...what is the best technique? Is this something to be even be concerned about?...I just started racing and don't want to get into bad habits that may affect my performance. Any info is truly appreciated. Thanks!

"Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls." ~Joseph Campbell
CrazyDiamond is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 12:35 PM
Registered User
 
knucklehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 3,958
9 and 3 and do the shuffle.
knucklehead is offline  
post #3 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 12:43 PM
www.theapexinn.com
 
kestrel74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Watkins Glen, NY
Posts: 11,675
I'm usually TEXTING while I'm on the track, so I just use my wrists.

Elise #2292 (SOLD) / CO / Starshield / Nitron Sport SA / RTDbrace / Uprights machined / Down Low rails / DBA 4000 Wiper Slot Rotors/ V1 / SS lines w/Pagid Black / G-Pan / Odyssey PC680 with RLS Bracket / Difflow 5 Element diffuser / Stebel Nautilus horn
www.theapexinn.com
" I started flying when Sex was safe and Hang Gliding was dangerous "
kestrel74 is offline  
 
post #4 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Registered User
 
PatrickShim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,278

'06 Lotus Elise (Laser Blue/Black/Sport-Pack/Touring-Pack/Hardtop/TRD airbox/Stage-II Exhaust) - VIDEO

Last edited by PatrickShim; 08-17-2009 at 12:57 PM.
PatrickShim is offline  
post #5 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 01:01 PM
Registered User
 
Chili Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 2,202
9 & 3, no shuffle. When you shuffle you can loose the center position of the wheel and have no idea how far to correct to catch the car if it gets loose. There are very few turns on tracks that require you to remove your hands from the wheel and re-position.

Disclaimer - Ive never AutoX'ed so it may be different there.

2007 Exige S - Chili Red
2009 Mini Cooper S - Chili Red
Gotham 265, Nitron Sport Pro, Moroso oil pan, RTVBrace, Volk CE28N/R888, Cup Wheels/A048, 2Bular Ultra 4", Rapfix II w/ Sparco P300, S111 CF Splitter, Ultradiscs, Pagid RS42, V-Force Harness Bar, Schroth PROFI II, Fire Extinguisher, Folding Tow Hook, Odyssey PC680, re-ENFORCER, LLumar 30% tint, Traqmate, DashDAQ, Chasecam, Alpine IVA-D100 w/ Backup Camera.
Chili Red is offline  
post #6 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 01:22 PM
insert clever title here
 
MattG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Living above the clouds in Colorado
Posts: 7,702
You'll find a lot of different opinions, I think. I'm a fan of the shuffle. Steering force should always be applied by pushing your hand up, not pulling it down (ie, one arm will be applying 90% of the force in any given corner). Along those lines, I often shuffle one hand before entering the turn, so that after I have used that hand to push the wheel into the corner, it ends up at either the 3 or the 9 position, in the optimal position to then apply any necessary steering angle adjustments without leading to an uncomfortable hand position.

'05 Elise, Magnetic Blue / Biscuit / Hardtop
MattG is offline  
post #7 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
CrazyDiamond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili Red View Post
9 & 3, no shuffle. When you shuffle you can loose the center position of the wheel and have no idea how far to correct to catch the car if it gets loose. There are very few turns on tracks that require you to remove your hands from the wheel and re-position.

Disclaimer - Ive never AutoX'ed so it may be different there.
I usually start at 9 and 3, but it seems like I am shuffling all over the place on the Auto X course...maybe I shouldn't be?? (How do you do it, Jacob?)...although I have been watching my coach (the amazing driver he is) letting go of the wheel while doing a little drift action...pretty cool, I think, but I probably shouldn't start attempting that skill at this point And he even told me not to pick up that "bad habit" (I don't think it's bad - I think it is extraordinary).
Oh yah, the other problem is that I am ending up with calluses on my hands after a day of racing...what's up with that?

"Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls." ~Joseph Campbell
CrazyDiamond is offline  
post #8 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 01:33 PM
Registered User
 
Simba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 580
Kind of depends on the car, rack speed, wheel size, etc. In an Elise/Exige with a small (not stock) wheel, 3&9, no shuffle. In autox you may need to cross hands from time to time, but I'd rather deal with that than losing the wheel center on what are generally extremely tight courses.
Simba is offline  
post #9 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
CrazyDiamond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simba View Post
Kind of depends on the car, rack speed, wheel size, etc. In an Elise/Exige with a small (not stock) wheel, 3&9, no shuffle. In autox you may need to cross hands from time to time, but I'd rather deal with that than losing the wheel center on what are generally extremely tight courses.
Driving a 2006 Noble M400...I honestly don't know the details on the wheel size ??

"Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls." ~Joseph Campbell
CrazyDiamond is offline  
post #10 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 01:53 PM
Registered User
 
RoadDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattG View Post
You'll find a lot of different opinions, I think. I'm a fan of the shuffle. Steering force should always be applied by pushing your hand up, not pulling it down (ie, one arm will be applying 90% of the force in any given corner). Along those lines, I often shuffle one hand before entering the turn, so that after I have used that hand to push the wheel into the corner, it ends up at either the 3 or the 9 position, in the optimal position to then apply any necessary steering angle adjustments without leading to an uncomfortable hand position.
I agree with the 9 & 3 but do not agree with the "pushing your hand up, not pulling it down" comment. That is taught to novice drivers most often because it helps keep a white knuckle death grip from occurring on the wheel. It helps to relax them a bit.

I'm 9 & 3 with shuffling only if unavoidable. I like to know where center is at all times.
RoadDad is offline  
post #11 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 02:00 PM
insert clever title here
 
MattG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Living above the clouds in Colorado
Posts: 7,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDad View Post
I agree with the 9 & 3 but do not agree with the "pushing your hand up, not pulling it down" comment. That is taught to novice drivers most often because it helps keep a white knuckle death grip from occurring on the wheel. It helps to relax them a bit.
I was taught that you can more easily pick up on the steering wheel feedback when using this technique, as you're using arm muscles that are more developed and thus more sensitive. I experimented with both pushing and pulling the wheel, and do feel that pushing it provided a finer sense of feedback. Of course, YMMV.

'05 Elise, Magnetic Blue / Biscuit / Hardtop
MattG is offline  
post #12 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 06:11 PM
Registered User
 
Chili Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 2,202
I think you will see very few good/pro drivers shuffle, but the majority of them do not.. If you loose wheel center how are you supposed to catch the car. I have been told by some pro's that its OK to pre-position your hands before the turn but not suggested.

Personally I feel that removing a hand from the wheel mid turn is generally not a good idea. I've driven 7-8 different tracks and not one of them had a turn I could not make without keeping my hands at 3 & 9.

2007 Exige S - Chili Red
2009 Mini Cooper S - Chili Red
Gotham 265, Nitron Sport Pro, Moroso oil pan, RTVBrace, Volk CE28N/R888, Cup Wheels/A048, 2Bular Ultra 4", Rapfix II w/ Sparco P300, S111 CF Splitter, Ultradiscs, Pagid RS42, V-Force Harness Bar, Schroth PROFI II, Fire Extinguisher, Folding Tow Hook, Odyssey PC680, re-ENFORCER, LLumar 30% tint, Traqmate, DashDAQ, Chasecam, Alpine IVA-D100 w/ Backup Camera.
Chili Red is offline  
post #13 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-17-2009, 09:44 PM
Registered User
 
Mr. Know's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Marin, California
Posts: 4,116
Garage
I personally keep my hands at 4 and 8 (on the lower bumps of the Momo wheel). I find it helps me not to hook my fingers on the spokes or hit the horn on accident. I did, however, hit it twice on my most recent track day, mainly because I was not following my own rule.

4 and 8 is "safer" for air bag equipped cars, or so I was told. The premise being that the arms are blown downward, instead of into your passenger and out the window.

07 Magnetic Blue Exige S
"Mostly though, it's just a triumph of British engineering." -Jeremy Clarkson
Mr. Know is offline  
post #14 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Registered User
 
Houston Lotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Houston
Posts: 156
You will most of the time keep your hands at 9 & 3 with a firm but relaxed grip on the wheel. There are also some slow hairpin corners that you will have to reposition your hands before the corner to keep from getting crossed up.

I always start the day on a unfamiliar track with a 9 & 3 grip going into all corners no matter if I am driving the Lotus or the Formula 1000.

2005 Lotus Elise http://www.alexbrownracing.net
2002 BMW Z3 (stock) http://alexbrownracing.blogspot.com
2004 BMW E46 M3 http://www.vimeo.com/alexbrownracing
2009 Nissan Armada LE http://www.tmgracer.com/team.php
2008 Tony Kart EVXX - Alex Brown Racing
2007 Stohr Formula 1000 (FB). SCCA/NASA Race Licensed Driver. (3 Class (FB) Race Wins)
Houston Lotus is offline  
post #15 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 08:36 AM
xtn
Registered User
 
xtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,981
I wouldn't shuffle unless absolutely necessary due to a very tight autox turn.

That being said... I don't get the comments related to having difficulty finding center again. I know where center is no matter what my hands are doing. The steering wheel is in my peripheral vision. Even if it weren't, I can immediately find center based on steering forces/feedback due to caster.

Most of the time steering inputs are not based on the steering wheel's absolute position anyway. Your steering inputs are based on relative needs; ie. do you need more or less input than you've already got dialed in.

xtn

2006 McLareghini Bugatterrari, Storm Titanium... installed: air horn, Scroth 4-point ASM harnesses, Sector111 halon extinguisher and mounting bracket, Von Hep exhaust and rear panel delete, Pagid brake pads, red Volks CE28n wheels, Toyo RA-1 tires, Nitron SA coilovers, Sector111 (WorksBell) quick-disconnect steering wheel kit. awaiting installation: Scroth "pull-up" lap belts, Sector111 RTD Brace, Tony's heater bypass mod, and dropped steering rack mounting plates.
xtn is offline  
post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 09:02 AM
Registered User
 
Vexige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 417
I was taught many years ago: 9 & 3, don't lock your fingers around the spokes, don't shuffle unless necessary and steer rather with your elbows (effort comes from elbows, actually shoulders) than your hands. Elbow part is especially true for open cockpit/limited cockpit space/quick steering race cars.
I don't think autoX could be done without shuffling
Vexige is offline  
post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 09:08 AM
Registered User
 
fitfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego!
Posts: 7,116
...you can do the 1/2 shuffle, if you need just a little more range with the hand going under, but leave the top hand in place, in otherwords, adjust to a 10-2 hand spacing by sliding that one hand in a bit. i am assume your finding you have to release your palm from the wheel as the hand turns under. everyone is a little different, i guess the correct answer is to get a tighter ratio steering rack!

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
-Lotus Cars VP of Global Design
fitfan is offline  
post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 09:11 AM
Registered User
 
loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 215
Lotus has thoughtfully provided you with thumb indentations at the 9 and three position of the wheel. For a purpose.

Fast TrackSaffron Yellow
loki is offline  
post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 10:59 AM
Registered User
 
catapult's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadDad View Post
I agree with the 9 & 3 but do not agree with the "pushing your hand up, not pulling it down" comment. That is taught to novice drivers most often because it helps keep a white knuckle death grip from occurring on the wheel. It helps to relax them a bit.

I'm 9 & 3 with shuffling only if unavoidable. I like to know where center is at all times.
+1 - I took a Jim Russell performance driving course last year and was told that the "latest" recommended technique is to pull down as it requires a lot less effort and therefore reduces fatigue over time. One also maintains greater control using this method because yor upper arm has less strength when extended at the top of the wheel especially in a sharp corner where the upper arm could be at top centre or past it. Try this little experiment - your hands at 9 and 3 and then pretend to turn the wheel to the right with your left hand at ending up at top centre (try to simulate the force required to turn) and then hold for 30 seconds. Now do the same thing but use your right arm to turn right by pulling down. You should notice that your left tricep and shoulders are much less stressed and the stress on the right arm is not great.

Also havng your right hand in your lap provides some additonal support.
catapult is offline  
post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
CrazyDiamond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post
+1 - I took a Jim Russell performance driving course last year and was told that the "latest" recommended technique is to pull down as it requires a lot less effort and therefore reduces fatigue over time. One also maintains greater control using this method because yor upper arm has less strength when extended at the top of the wheel especially in a sharp corner where the upper arm could be at top centre or past it. Try this little experiment - your hands at 9 and 3 and then pretend to turn the wheel to the right with your left hand at ending up at top centre (try to simulate the force required to turn) and then hold for 30 seconds. Now do the same thing but use your right arm to turn right by pulling down. You should notice that your left tricep and shoulders are much less stressed and the stress on the right arm is not great.

Also havng your right hand in your lap provides some additonal support.
I did feel a difference...interesting point...thank you!

"Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls." ~Joseph Campbell
CrazyDiamond is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Motorsports > Solo timed events

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome