Best Hand Placement - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #41 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 10:38 AM
Registered User
 
Mr. Know's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Marin, California
Posts: 4,116
Garage
Gloves definitely.

07 Magnetic Blue Exige S
"Mostly though, it's just a triumph of British engineering." -Jeremy Clarkson
Mr. Know is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 10:44 AM
Registered User
 
RichS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Adrenaline View Post
I went AutoX'n this weekend and I am having a really hard time with my hand placement starting at 9 and 3 and then ending up at high noon! In addition, I am ending up with yucky blisters on my hands...
Practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Adrenaline View Post
Any suggestions on practicing keeping my hand placement during a race? I thought tape, but decided that may not be too safe
Practice when on the street. Also, find an empty parking lot (no cones) and do it for an hour or so. Concentrate on keeping your left hand on the wheel in the same spot. Only your right hand moves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Adrenaline View Post
Also, what is everyone's thoughts on gloves? Cool or Dorky?
I've never really cared if I look that dorky or not, it's all about effectiveness. I wear gloves (fireproof) when on the race track during a race, but often don't wear them when I'm just tracking. If you are thinking about gloves, I'd go and buy some good racing gloves and give them a shot. That way if you ever decide to race in the future you already have gloves. (You will most likely need gloves to race competitively.)

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance."
-- Laurence J. Peter
RichS is offline  
post #43 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
CrazyDiamond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichS View Post
Practice.

I've never really cared if I look that dorky or not, it's all about effectiveness. I wear gloves (fireproof) when on the race track during a race, but often don't wear them when I'm just tracking. If you are thinking about gloves, I'd go and buy some good racing gloves and give them a shot. That way if you ever decide to race in the future you already have gloves. (You will most likely need gloves to race competitively.)
Yah, I probably should have prefaced my statement a little better in regards to a "fashion statement" with gloves...I was actually hesitant to go with gloves because at this point I am concentrating on AutoX - no track...I understand the functionality of gloves on the track, but AutoX I wasn't sure if it would appear to over the top, but with the blisters I continue to get, I really wanted the extra protection from that...My coach/co-driver says I really should stop grabbing the wheel so hard, but until I teach myself that, I really want to avoid the wear and tear on my hands...I am a girl afterall - trying to avoid Seinfeld "Man Hands"

"Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls." ~Joseph Campbell
CrazyDiamond is offline  
 
post #44 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 11:16 AM
Registered User
 
RichS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Adrenaline View Post
My coach/co-driver says I really should stop grabbing the wheel so hard
Listen to your coach. I've told folks that you can drive an entire lap of a track with only your thumbs on the steering wheel (those little protrusions that the Lotus has), and then did it.

Basically the lighter you can hold the wheel, the more your are going to feel through the wheel. Also you will be more relaxed and won't get as tired.

So now let's do this: Between your palms and the wheel is a cute little beetle (a ladybug?). Don't crush the beetle while you are driving. Also imagine that the shifter is topped with a little baby bird. Don't crush the baby bird.


"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance."
-- Laurence J. Peter
RichS is offline  
post #45 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 11:17 AM
Registered User
 
RichS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,366
Also, you can practice the above on the street too.

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance."
-- Laurence J. Peter
RichS is offline  
post #46 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
CrazyDiamond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichS View Post
Listen to your coach. I've told folks that you can drive an entire lap of a track with only your thumbs on the steering wheel (those little protrusions that the Lotus has), and then did it.

Basically the lighter you can hold the wheel, the more your are going to feel through the wheel. Also you will be more relaxed and won't get as tired.

So now let's do this: Between your palms and the wheel is a cute little beetle (a ladybug?). Don't crush the beetle while you are driving. Also imagine that the shifter is topped with a little baby bird. Don't crush the baby bird.

Sweet! Thank you ! I will give it a try...on the street in my Lexus too

"Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls." ~Joseph Campbell
CrazyDiamond is offline  
post #47 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 01:21 PM
Registered User
 
paulhastings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: San Diego native
Posts: 924
Driving the Lotus doesn't seem to require much for shuffle or should I see a minor change in hand position. I never really noticed it until an instructor mentioned years ago, pre Lotus ownership, that I was shuffling. I think it became habit from karting. I don't think it's a big deal as my hands don't really even come off the wheel if I change position for a sharp corner. More of a little slide. Definitely practice pulling rather then pushing the wheel. I gives better control and ability to absorb any movements.
paulhastings is online now  
post #48 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 01:38 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichS View Post
Practice.

Concentrate on keeping your left hand on the wheel in the same spot. Only your right hand moves.
rich - I'm trying to figure out how this works. So on a sharp righthand turn your left arm would be across your face/chest. Where would your right hand be if it's the only one moving?
catapult is offline  
post #49 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Registered User
 
RichS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,366
The only time I move my right hand off the wheel is for shifting. Otherwise it stays right on the wheel in the 3 position. I've yet to find a track where it is not possible to keep both hands on the wheel in 9 and 3 positions. Both Hallett and MSR Cresson have turns where my arms ALMOST cross, but they never get to the point where I knocking my arms against each other. (See video.) On the street if I have to move my hands from that position to take a turn (that is sharper than any track turn) I would leave my left hand at 9 and possibly move my right hand above my left hand temporarily. Obviously there does exist a theoretical point where this becomes too difficult to do (when you left hand is so far around the wheel that it begins to get upside down), but in practice that happens so little and your car would be traveling at such a slow speed that it really isn't worth talking about.

Remember, the main thing we are concerned about is developing a brain pattern for when the car is moving, especially when it is moving quickly and things have started to get out of control (or they already are out of control). If my left hand is ALWAYS at 9 in these situations, then I ALWAYS know how much I have to turn the wheel to get things back under control. If I shuffle steer with both hands (and I do realize that there are certain cars with wheels so big that you basically don't have any choice in this) then I can pretty easily get my hands in a position where I'm not sure how much the wheel will have to turn to get things straightened out.

This video is from quite a while back when I was still learning, but you can see (about 20 seconds in I hit turn 2) that I try to keep my hands in the 'right' position on the wheel even though I'm taking a very sharp turn on the track.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q3XsmXQJll0&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q3XsmXQJll0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance."
-- Laurence J. Peter

Last edited by RichS; 08-25-2009 at 03:11 PM.
RichS is offline  
post #50 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-25-2009, 07:57 PM
Registered User
 
nockpoint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichS View Post
9 and 3, no shuffle. Never, ever move your left hand if for some reason you have to shuffle. When I get students who move their left hand I tell them if they do it again, I'll tape their left hand to the wheel (of course I would never do it, but they get the idea). Since your left hand never moves, you will always know the position of your wheel.

Don't wrap your thumbs around the wheel (helps prevent thumbs from breaking when you hit the wall, and, much more importantly, it also helps prevent you from death gripping the wheel while driving). Also do this when driving on the street.

Finally when you reach the pinnacle of racing, your hands will be at 9 and 3 and you won't be shuffle steering.

See picture.

/thread
+1 for thumb looping. Not to dumb down the thread with my own inexperience but this recent event is somewhat related.

When I picked up the Lotus and got sent to Vegas for the training day the idea of breaking every bone in my hand wasn't very attractive. The instructors outlined some typical poor wheel gripping they see in every day driving, such as the good ole drape your hand through and rest it inside the steering wheel. I made it a point to change bad habits even in every day driving. Fast forward 2 years, June 11th I was bringing my wife's truck home at midnight. Going through an intersection by my house a 16yr old girl on her learners permit driving an Escalade failed to yield, crossed over to my side of the road and hit me head on. Escalades weigh 5600lbs... ouch.

My hands were 9 and 3 and I was gripping the wheel. I think my left arm either got trapped between the seat and the wheel or the airbag slammed my elbow into the window... maybe both. Because I had gripped the wheel my thumb got bent WAY back. If I hadn't looped my thumb around the wheel my left hand and arm would probably be OK. Of course it's possible I might have ended up punching the dashboard as well. At this point though I'm trying to keep my thumb.
nockpoint is offline  
post #51 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-26-2009, 04:58 AM
Registered User
 
ads_green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichS View Post
Ughh... I guess I should have added a smiley to the end of that sentence. I really don't think that anyone reading this thread is ever going to end up in F1.

(Also you missed the chance to chastise Salty Dog about putting an 8 ball on his steering wheel...)
:-)
Sorry - realised that just as I was shutting down

Well... now you see... If you are serious about autocross then the 8 ball is really the only way to go (and you really want the steering wheel mounted more horizontally)

On a track then yes, there are few tracks that need anything other than 9-3.
the problem is when you have a "moment" and need to apply more lock than normal. Keeping your hands plants limits what you can do, rapidly thrashing the wheel loses you the centre and you're likely to overcorrect and start a tank slapper. If you are prepared to reposition your hands as appropriate then it's not a problem.

Also for autocross you will get corners considerably sharper than any track where you spend more time on full lock than anything else.

Last edited by ads_green; 08-26-2009 at 05:11 AM.
ads_green is offline  
post #52 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-26-2009, 05:31 AM
Registered User
 
RichS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by ads_green View Post
Also for autocross you will get corners considerably sharper than any track where you spend more time on full lock than anything else.
Very true. Maybe we should ask Robert what he does. I mean, he does have some experience in this area...

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance."
-- Laurence J. Peter
RichS is offline  
post #53 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-26-2009, 05:33 AM
Registered User
 
RichS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by ads_green View Post
the problem is when you have a "moment" and need to apply more lock than normal.
May I humbly suggest (on a track of course) that if during your "moment" you have to apply so much lock on the wheel that you need to move your hands past the point where 9 and 3 work... you've already lost it and are merely along for the ride at that point.

Rich "I've been at that point." S

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance."
-- Laurence J. Peter
RichS is offline  
post #54 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-26-2009, 03:06 PM
Forum Founder
 
Randy Chase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Tail of the Dragon
Posts: 29,083
Garage
I have video of the driver in the Noble at the last autocross. Robert's video is a little misleading as I neglected to put the steering wheel spacer in and his legs hit the steering wheel, not allowing his hands to fully travel.

I have been told if I post Andrea's (sweet adrenaline) incar video, I will not wake up the next morning.

So here is mine.

YouTube - Letting go

I mostly put my hands at 0 and 3 and don't move them. I do sometimes let go altogether and on purpose. In looking at this video, I need to tighten the harness. I flop around too much. I also make funny facial expressions.

I have another video where I was making "giddy up" motions with my right hand as I exited one corner. And another where I was laughing and yelling the whole way. I obviously don't take this stuff too seriously.

But yeah, you can see the big difference with Andrea is she starts out at near 9-3 but then shifts to 11-1 and steers like that.

#somethingwickedthiswaycomes... the new Origin Noble M and the Origin 7

Zenos E10S for Sale! www.zenosforsale.com

There are some very shady dealers in the Lotus business.

2005 Lotus Elise, 1993 MR2, 1995 MR2, 125cc Shifter Kart, Toniq (in build), 2018 Origin 7 (waiting), 2018 Origin Noble M (waiting)
Randy Chase is offline  
post #55 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-26-2009, 04:23 PM
Registered User
 
apexdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Palm Springs, CA
Posts: 993
For track work, not autocross, most tracks will allow 9-3 or 10-2.

I prefer 10-2, (thumbs out) partially because I am tall and it gives me a little more elbow room. Ideal seating position will allow you to place your wrist on the top of the wheel when tightly belted in with shoulder harnesses. This insures that you will be able to turn full pattern without having to release your grip at the top.

Whichever o'clock you prefer, one of the biggest problems I have with new students, is them moving their hands all over the wheel instead of keeping them in ONE position.

Each time you move your hands on the wheel, it is diverting a bit of your attention to this action. That attention could be used to be a little smoother or faster!


2006 Elise, Graphite Grey/Red leather, Sport Elise Suspension, Cup airbox, ECU ref lash, MonoBalls, etc. etc.
1992 900SS Ducati Race Spec Built by Ferracci
2006 KTM 950 SuperMoto, a work in progress

Old stuff gone: Ferrari 275GTB/4, '69 1275 Cooper S. '72 500 Fiat, old Jags, etc. Never bought a boring car.
apexdc is offline  
post #56 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-26-2009, 05:53 PM
Registered User
 
XHILR8N!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 2 laps down
Posts: 6,844
Garage
This is a video (per Lancer360) showing Nick Adams at VIR.

Lotus Track Day VIR Day 2 Run with Nick Adams of Lotus

10 and 2, thumbs up, quite relaxed, no gloves. This what I (try to) do.

Bonus, nice extended conversation about tires, wheels, handling from the guy who knows.

Anyone can make something complicated. It takes genius to make it simple. Einstein.
2011 Evora S Racing Heritage Edition (#3 of 4) (Now with alexsharkeyross)
2005 Elise LRG, track prepped ,
1974 Lotus Europa Special 3841R in JPS livery
2007 Toyota Tundra (about 10 cup holders), traded for 2015 Tundra TRD PRO
2007 Audi S4 DTM (RIP) 1980 Rover SD1 (new home) 2015 Honda Civic Si
2016 370Z Nismo
2013 Bentley Continental GT Speed 2019 Lexus LC500
XHILR8N! is offline  
post #57 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-26-2009, 06:10 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,202
A little off topic, for those who watched the above video with Nick Adams. The RA1's should be run at closer to 40 PSI (I run 38 front 40 rear hot). This will improve the steering considerably as it removes a lot of the sidewall flex he was talking about.
Chili Red is offline  
post #58 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-27-2009, 04:44 AM
Registered User
 
TedDBere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRTHTAKR View Post
This is a video (per Lancer360) showing Nick Adams at VIR.

.
Couple of spots he scared me with yanks on the wheel in the middle of the turn. Like in the middle of oak tree. If I did that with a vette we'd be spinning. Why was he doing that?

TED
TedDBere is offline  
post #59 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-27-2009, 06:04 AM
Registered User
 
ads_green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedDBere View Post
Couple of spots he scared me with yanks on the wheel in the middle of the turn. Like in the middle of oak tree. If I did that with a vette we'd be spinning. Why was he doing that?
One looked like to control understeer - he needed to take off the lock, brake a bit more and then get back on the lock pretty damn quick.

Another look like to get the back to move a little to make it "fun"

Vette will spin nlike most front engined cars in that situation as there's bugger all weight/load on the rears making it difficult.
ads_green is offline  
post #60 of 70 (permalink) Old 08-27-2009, 06:25 AM
Forum Founder
 
Randy Chase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Tail of the Dragon
Posts: 29,083
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili Red View Post
A little off topic, for those who watched the above video with Nick Adams. The RA1's should be run at closer to 40 PSI (I run 38 front 40 rear hot). This will improve the steering considerably as it removes a lot of the sidewall flex he was talking about.
+1

I used to compete on RA1s at 48psi.

#somethingwickedthiswaycomes... the new Origin Noble M and the Origin 7

Zenos E10S for Sale! www.zenosforsale.com

There are some very shady dealers in the Lotus business.

2005 Lotus Elise, 1993 MR2, 1995 MR2, 125cc Shifter Kart, Toniq (in build), 2018 Origin 7 (waiting), 2018 Origin Noble M (waiting)
Randy Chase is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Motorsports > Solo timed events

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome