First event in the Elise; impressions, problems and questions. - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-16-2015, 12:32 PM
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I suspect that the wing isn't doing anything at autocross speeds, but I'll defer to the experts. Especially since you don't have front aero, might as well save the weight of the thing.


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Originally Posted by ABQautoxer View Post
...get BWRs bigger bar to preserve camber as the front will roll a bit less.
Doesn't the Elise gain camber with suspension compression since the suspension is based on double wishbones? I always thought the point of the bigger front bar for auto-x was to keep the rear from lifting, since there is no rear roll bar. With a strut based suspension, yes, roll is the enemy of camber.

Again, I'll defer to the experts though.

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post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-16-2015, 01:44 PM
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soloperformance.com makes numbers that are reusable that you can stick on before and remove after events

I had that wing before and I don't think it made much of a difference if any. Technically I don't think its legal for SSM as it sits too far back, not that I think anyone would complain

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post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-16-2015, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage View Post
I suspect that the wing isn't doing anything at autocross speeds, but I'll defer to the experts. Especially since you don't have front aero, might as well save the weight of the thing.
I'm sure it doesn't, but if I take it off theres holes in the clam. maybe one day I'll replace it with a proper SSM sized wing, but at this point I doubt it's slowing me down either, so I'll just leave it be.


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Originally Posted by Vantage View Post
Doesn't the Elise gain camber with suspension compression since the suspension is based on double wishbones? I always thought the point of the bigger front bar for auto-x was to keep the rear from lifting, since there is no rear roll bar. With a strut based suspension, yes, roll is the enemy of camber.

Again, I'll defer to the experts though.
Interesting point - I'd also like to hear what people think about this. Since most competitive folks are running that bar I suspect it does help, but they're also all likely running an aftermarket steering arm for more camber (except SS guys/gals).

~Matt
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post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage View Post
I suspect that the wing isn't doing anything at autocross speeds, but I'll defer to the experts. Especially since you don't have front aero, might as well save the weight of the thing.




Doesn't the Elise gain camber with suspension compression since the suspension is based on double wishbones? I always thought the point of the bigger front bar for auto-x was to keep the rear from lifting, since there is no rear roll bar. With a strut based suspension, yes, roll is the enemy of camber.

Again, I'll defer to the experts though.
The wing does almost nothing, especially at that AOA.

Yes a double wishbone gains as it compresses. The question you should be asking is, does it gain enough when you start with -1 at static ride height. It's easy to take the shock off, and run the setup through its motion and measure then measure camber vs chassis roll. Or take our word for it. Also when you do get the front end working, it will drastically change the balance. Maybe I'm not competitive enough to be convincing.

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post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 05:17 AM
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There's no question that you need more front camber... regardless of what the camber curve is like. Keep in mind, when the car rolls, the angle of the body roll takes away from what ever camber gain you get in the suspension. I would think that your car would want somewhere between -2.5* and -3.3* (static) depending on the tire/wheel combo. The former is achievable with the sector arms. The later will require more than just the sector arms.

Regarding wings: first off, holy moly, they are effective at even slow auto-x speeds. I was somewhat skeptical but after installing my wing, I was stunned at how planted the rear of the car became. The first event I used it at was a local on a pretty tight, slowish course and the difference was night and day. BUT, my wing is pretty big and has an extreme angle of attack. I'm not sure Dallasreeds wing is doing much at that AOA but I'm sure it's doing something. If the AOA was increased, it would be more effective.
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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 06:03 AM
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I should have been clear, that particular wing set to that AOA does not work at typical autox speed. I do know even angled trunk spoilers do something (think CSP Miata) and are worth it, but typically their AOA is much more aggressive even in a much less efficient location.

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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 07:05 AM
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I'm not saying that more static camber is not needed. I run -2.2f / -2.5r myself. My point is that running a stiffer front bar for purposes of limiting suspension travel so that camber is preserved doesn't seem to make sense.
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glagola1 View Post
I'm not sure Dallasreeds wing is doing much at that AOA but I'm sure it's doing something. If the AOA was increased, it would be more effective.
My experience with the apr gtc-200 wing, the difference between not having it and having it with it set at 8 degrees is little enough difference where its practically negligible or at least there are a lot of other things making a much bigger difference at autocross speeds. Also, APR themselves have their sim data saying your getting something like an ideal 100lbs df and 10lbs drag at 80mph (the lowest speed they tested, hmmmm..., but ~175lbs at 100mph). This data is assuming you don't have mounts, have perfect clean air, the planets are in alignment, etc. Realistically it is probably measurably less than that.

Now at track speeds I certainly think the gtc-200 in its factory form helps the car feel more planted, in my experience.

I took it a step further to give the GTC-200 its best chance, added raisers to the mount to get the wing above the roofline for clean air and added APR's gurney flap, which according to APR should net around 167lbs at 80mph (378lbs at 120mph) at 8* aoa. I did notice a difference in feel, but again really only usefully at track speed. It was very noticeable over 80mph. I'm sure it was doing something at 50mph but not enough to be worth the cost of adding risers and the gurney flap when there are much better solutions than the GTC-200.

I knocked some more ideas back and forth with a former pro race driver, who's opinion in short was for the gtc-200 to make respectable downforce for autocross you would basically need to set the AOA so steep, well past what APR recommends, such it is making a ton of drag.... You might be just as well served by a duck tail that you could throw together for a fraction of what the GTC-200 costs.

I ultimately decided to bite the bullet get a wing from Ciro Design for autocross.

I'll have my gtc-200, gurney flap, and one off risers listed for sale probably in the next few weeks.

For track I think the GTC-200 is great, especially for the price compared to Reverie. Also it looks cool.

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post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 09:25 AM
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Oh damn, that ciro wing is stepping up big time. You know, a jig saw is a great tool for cutting clams.
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post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glagola1 View Post
Oh damn, that ciro wing is stepping up big time. You know, a jig saw is a great tool for cutting clams.
hoping my bad ass swan neck makes up for my lack of driving skill LOL

sawzall ftw


bonus you can see the crazy high GTC-200 I tried out in that pic

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2007 Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder
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2004 Mazda RX8
2007 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
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post #31 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 11:39 AM
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Killer! I love to see clams getting murdered. Looks like you are well on your way to the dark side.

Sometimes, I wish my car was black.
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post #32 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 12:13 PM
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Killer! I love to see clams getting murdered. Looks like you are well on your way to the dark side.

Sometimes, I wish my car was black.
Wanna trade? LOL

This Lotus has been on the lift more than on the road (or sea of cones as it were) this year it seems. Too many delays with parts and other little unwanted surprises.

Ran more laps of autocross this year so far in a viper than in my Lotus

But with any luck I'll see you at Wilmington

I think I've pretty much done everything for the car to be competitive except I need to relearn the car and I am not accustom to driving on A7s. The grip feels unnatural.

2005 Lotus Elise turbo k20a2 757whp 536wtq 31psi [email protected]
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post #33 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage View Post
Doesn't the Elise gain camber with suspension compression since the suspension is based on double wishbones? I always thought the point of the bigger front bar for auto-x was to keep the rear from lifting, since there is no rear roll bar. With a strut based suspension, yes, roll is the enemy of camber.
Elise front camber curve (stock height is ~13.125" in this plot):


For reference, here is the front camber curve of my Honda S2000 (stock is the blue curve):


The Elise gains slightly less camber than the S2000 during compression.

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post #34 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-18-2015, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the great info guys, glad I started this thread now.

The V2 arms or something similar (looks like there are a few different options on the market) along with new bushings and a suspension refresh are hopefully all happening this coming off-season. The wing will probably remain the same until I do something up front to match it. DallasReed, that splitter looks great - is that aftermarket or a custom piece? I still need something streetable - looks like you could get away with that to and from events anyway.

Let me know when you go to sell the uprights and gurney lip off the wing - I may give it a try before going balls out custom - and again dont want too much wing without splitter to match.

Dallasreed, what was your wheel/tire package before cutting the clams? I need a good option for next season in that arena too.

thanks

~Matt
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'16 VW GTI, Wifey's ride
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post #35 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-18-2015, 08:25 PM
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V2arms, stiff springs (if you already have coilovers you can get stiff springs for), adjustable sway bar, proper alignment and corner balance, All cheapish stuff that helps a lot
Seat time makes biggest difference

Any much beyond that gets into $$$$

Splitters a custom deal. I actually have spares for this already built I may list for sale yet, or the whole deal as a kit. If your into diy glagola1 made a thread on building his that has pictures that more or less shows the process. Mine is made out of a hard rubber plastic like material specifically for addressing the problem of holding up to hitting stuff and scraping without taking damage as I was fed up with cracking fiberglass. Only downside is when the material gets hot in the sun it expands ever so slightly and gets slight bowing between the two supports but goes back to normal when it cools. Doesn't really matter functionally I imagine, and better than it being a consumable. That picture I think is the 3 inch one. Also made 6 inch hardcore. Noticeable difference at track speed but I think other stuff makes a bigger difference.

Before I was trailering I was using this setup for autocross, track, and street and it was great
Ethos 15x7 and 16x8
toyo ra-1 205/50R15
toyo ra-1 245/45R16
(Sidenote I have this exact setup listed in parts for sale)

After trailering but before clam cutting
Same as above with hoosier a7
(Sidenote have my rears for sale from this setup)

So basically I may have a bunch of goodies I'd part with you want lol
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post #36 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 06:11 AM
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Dallasreed, that would be awesome if you could make the Wilmington Tour. It'd be fantastic to see another Lotus in grid.
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post #37 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasreed View Post
V2arms, stiff springs (if you already have coilovers you can get stiff springs for), adjustable sway bar, proper alignment and corner balance, All cheapish stuff that helps a lot
Seat time makes biggest difference

Any much beyond that gets into $$$$

Splitters a custom deal. I actually have spares for this already built I may list for sale yet, or the whole deal as a kit. If your into diy glagola1 made a thread on building his that has pictures that more or less shows the process. Mine is made out of a hard rubber plastic like material specifically for addressing the problem of holding up to hitting stuff and scraping without taking damage as I was fed up with cracking fiberglass. Only downside is when the material gets hot in the sun it expands ever so slightly and gets slight bowing between the two supports but goes back to normal when it cools. Doesn't really matter functionally I imagine, and better than it being a consumable. That picture I think is the 3 inch one. Also made 6 inch hardcore. Noticeable difference at track speed but I think other stuff makes a bigger difference.

Before I was trailering I was using this setup for autocross, track, and street and it was great
Ethos 15x7 and 16x8
toyo ra-1 205/50R15
toyo ra-1 245/45R16
(Sidenote I have this exact setup listed in parts for sale)

After trailering but before clam cutting
Same as above with hoosier a7
(Sidenote have my rears for sale from this setup)

So basically I may have a bunch of goodies I'd part with you want lol

Only 205s on the front? can you not fit a 225 with that setup?
I'd love to take those wheels/tires off your hands, but I just don't have the car-parts budget this month. Aaand, i'm really tempted by the BOE Bogarts at 8"/9" widths, though they are massively expensive by comparison.

Are you willing to share more info on the material you used for the front splitter? Interested to see what my home-fab options are down the road and that plastic sounds promising. I've bookmarked glagola's build thread. Your car looks awesome.
EDIT: just realized I responded to a previous thread of yours 'gauging interest for products..' saying i'd be interested in the splitters and mesh grills if you produced them, as well as flares down the road. https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f259...skirts-304090/

Thanks for all the inspiration guys, keep it coming. What other wheel/tire packages have people used before cutting clams? Anyone else try R888 or NT01s? I'm curious what else will work well that's more streetable than A7s.

~Matt
'06 CO Elise
'17 Toyota 4Runner TRD Pro, cement grey
'16 VW GTI, Wifey's ride
Past toys: '02 WRX | '06 STI | '14 Subaru BRZ

Last edited by RideMooch; 07-20-2015 at 02:37 PM.
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post #38 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 05:18 PM
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for 15x7 you want 205s not 225s due to sidewall flex
also i am not entirely certain that 225 A7s would fit as they run kind of large compared to other brands

imo while you have stock fenders you would be better served by lighter (and cheaper) wheels such as ethos or team dynamics 1.2

splitter is a material meant for marine use. I can't remember whats its called off the top of my head but I am thinking it is something like this or it is this
SEABOARD or StarBoard Marine Board - specialty UV Resistant marine plastic sheet

mesh grills are in the works. possibly doing something different with the engine bay grills as mentioned in the other thread. going to try the first set of those on the turbo car. The ones on the supercharged car are DIY similar to whats been done already

ended up using eliseparts uprights and did some uncharted territory stuff with the rotors and calipers to drop something like 5lbs+ per side and keep the parking brake

I'll post a built thread for my supercharged/autocross car at some point in the next few weeks most likely. It has a lot going on that is not quite the usual

I used R888 before cutting clams and liked RA-1 marginally better for performance driving, and substantially better for street use

2005 Lotus Elise turbo k20a2 757whp 536wtq 31psi [email protected]
2005 Lotus Elise 2zz supercharged 'streetable' race car
2007 Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder
2010 Ford F350
2004 Mazda RX8
2007 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid
I passed my license test in a 3cyl 70hp Geo Metro
I learned to drive a manual on a Lotus Elise

Last edited by dallasreed; 07-20-2015 at 05:38 PM.
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post #39 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 08:12 PM
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So chiming in, where I am not an expert as Matt is, I like to dabble a bit.

In terms of tires...I recently went with the Team Dynamic 15x8 F and 17x9 rear running 225s in the front and 255s in the rear. I had a little rubbing on wheel liners, but scissors helped...A LOT!!!

We are running Hankook RS3 V2s currently, and honestly they work well and fit VERY nicely with that wheel package. Wheels are from BWR. I also have the BWR Hardcore bar and the Penske D/A suspension package (500/700 spring rates), and after taking the year to get the car to set up properly...I think we are finally there with it. Drove this last weekend and it was awesome. Ironically my TPs are 22/24 (f/r) respectively.

We had a little chatter on mid corner in the front end, and after reading through this thread, I agree with matt, I need to increase my front camber as well, it is currently at -2.0/-2.1 and so I am going to pull a couple of shims as I think it will seriously help the car plant the front end a lot better on street tires.

Either way, long story short, welcome to the club of fun. I realized this last weekend myself, that I am not going to be nearly as competitive as I want to be because I just don't have the funds. So I am going to take a year off next year and get my car build finished and then come back the next year and just have a lot of fun.

But I want to keep reading on the changes you are going to do to your car...and chime in where I feel like I can.

BTW, I have the BWR Hardcore bar, and on it, if you stiffen it, it cause the car to push more...assuming that your suspension is properly placed and well balanced at some point. Which in my case...we FINALLY got it to do that this weekend. My front end has been working SO WELL, that we couldn't figure out a way to tame the rear...without adding a spoiler to the back end like Matt's.

Dallasreed: Are those vents you were talking about the ones I sent you drawing for? Love to see what you ended up with.

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post #40 of 54 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 03:44 AM
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Yep slow going but haven't forgot
They aren't made but I have the material etc. There will be pictures

Last edited by dallasreed; 07-21-2015 at 03:46 AM.
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