The Solo Setup Thread for the Elise in SCCA - Page 6 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #101 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis View Post
1. Not SS legal. You have to cut a larger hole in the the aluminum diffuser "body panel" to fit the Stage II. You can cut the large tips off the stage II and replace with smaller.

2. Run it stock until you start getting wheel hop/spin. Then you know you are pushing the car hard enough to really need a bar. BWR and a few customs are all that I know of.

3. Not sure of any Koni DA for the Elise. A number of Tours have been won on stock LSS dampers....they are fine.

4. Tire sizes sound fine...same as A6 sizes which run a little wide.
I may do that but for now I'll just run it until someone protests me in tire (which would be stupid). It didn't seem to me that the hole was enlargened, or maybe they just did a very clean job at the dealer.

I'll probably grab the tires and add the front bar after a few events depending on how it goes. The LSS dampers on the street makes the steering feel very heavy around a corner like it's loading up and then almost skips/understeers. Not sure if the shocks are the culprit.

Thanks for chiming in though Clovis, your advice is always BTW PM sent

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post #102 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 10:38 AM
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About 4 to 5 mm left of the original 7 mm tread.

I need to get some shots of the wheels. I had just photographed the tires for someone that was originally interested in just the tires. The 615's are fairly worn and I would just include those with the wheels.



These wheels:


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post #103 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 10:40 AM
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I wouldn't mind a 2nd set of LSS incase I can find a co-driver and run real SS. Shoot me a PM, I wouldn't need the tires.

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post #104 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 10:44 AM
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This Snap Oversteer:



Cured by this sway bar:

http://www.blackwatchracing.com/shop...detail&p=4&c=5

I think there is a specific version for Track Pack cars ...

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post #105 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
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This Snap Oversteer:



Cured by this sway bar:

http://www.blackwatchracing.com/shop...detail&p=4&c=5

I think there is a specific version for Track Pack cars ...
I have sport pack not track pack but I think I'll do a few events w/o and see. From the looks of the pic alone it looks like you're too far away from the cone and maybe carrying too much corner entry speed?

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post #106 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-01-2008, 06:28 AM
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The bigger front bar improves transient response more than anything.

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post #107 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-01-2008, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
it looks like you're too far away from the cone and maybe carrying too much corner entry speed?
This happened at our first race with the Elise. I was trying to find the proper entry speed. Too slow and the car would understeer. Too fast and the car would understeer. I was going in fast. There was a bump that probably screwed up my braking, throwing me out. When we added the larger front bar we could "lean" on the car more. Stiffening up the front end allowed us to be more aggressive with the Elise.

Here is another attempt at the same corner. In my opinion, at that time, I felt it was good to be wide at that point for proper entry into the next corner.



Here is a picture of me experiencing snap oversteer, closer to a cone. Flat out downhill section. I probably wasn't quite as smooth entering this section as I should have?


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post #108 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-01-2008, 09:15 AM
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Here is the car owner at the next section ... still wide as the corner combination continues to decrease in radius.


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post #109 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-01-2008, 09:18 AM
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Here tucked in a bit more. John is an experienced road racer. He too was having a hand full at our first event:


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post #110 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 04:43 AM
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I noticed you're running azenis in the picture. A local guy tried those last season and said that it made for an awful lot of oversteer due to the available size. I think the rear sizes were too narrow?

Also you said that the car had understeer either too slow or too fast in, wouldn't a bigger front bar make that worse? On the Miata the front bar just helps cut out the body roll more than adjust the oversteer/understeer properties. I guess on the Elise it's added for the same purpose plus to eliminate rear wheel lift?

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post #111 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 06:47 AM
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You'll need to throw out most of your preconceived ideas of how a bigger bar effects handling when it comes to the Elise.

There are some guys in the UK that seem to think you can't go too big on the front bar. And they're talking about road racing, not autocross.

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post #112 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 10:58 AM
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I noticed you're running azenis in the picture. A local guy tried those last season and said that it made for an awful lot of oversteer due to the available size. I think the rear sizes were too narrow?
At the top of the page you can see my 245/40/17 Yok rear tires. As I said, I went with this mix package of tires in order to match the sizes that the car owner was running in Hoosier R's. Correct, there were no matching Falkens for the rear, and no matching Yoks for the front. Yes, it was a failed experiment!

When we were first trying out the car, we noted the snap oversteer. I thought putting the sticker Yoks in back might help that situation.

The car owner, an experienced road racer using real race cars, not sedans, finally drove the car with the street tires again at the end of the season and noted what a handful it was. Even with the not very used Yoks, stored bagged in a cool environment between events, it was hard to get the power down, even with our LSD.

Where as his R tires transformed the Elise into a great tool, my selection of tires made it into a less fun toy. One had to really transfer weight onto the front tires to get them to turn in nicely, but a bit too much and it pushed. Not enough, and it pushed.

A bigger front sway bar on a properly set-up (race) car adds push. But on a pig like a Subaru it definitely helps reduce understeer by controlling front end roll, which takes away Camber. I don't know why it helps control snap oversteer on the Elise ... BUT IT DEFINITELY Transformed our Track Pack Elise. We've got our Camber maxed out, a bit of toe out in the front (helps turn in), a bit of toe-in in back (to help plant the rear on corner exit) lowered to the advised limit and we have carefully devised damper settings for the two different surfaces that we run on.

I'll ask the car owner why he felt the bigger bar made our Elise work.

oem sway bar:



Blackwatch bigger bar:

looking for photos ... back later ...

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post #113 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 11:24 AM
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You should see Brian's bar (I'm fortunate to have one too). It makes all the other bars look like cheap lawn furniture metal. Running wayyyyyy stiffer than stock.

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post #114 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
cheap lawn furniture metal.
Have you seen the Blackwatch bar?! Not only Big, it's a work of art!

http://www.blackwatchracing.com/shop...detail&p=4&c=5

Robert ... are there still two versions? Silver for "regular" Elises; Gold for Trackpack cars? I don't see two listed or a Note about two versions. What's the difference again?

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post #115 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert Puertas View Post
You'll need to throw out most of your preconceived ideas of how a bigger bar effects handling when it comes to the Elise.

There are some guys in the UK that seem to think you can't go too big on the front bar. And they're talking about road racing, not autocross.
I just got the car so I'm learning a lot about it. So I'm getting some mixed replies. Some people say for sticky street tires I can live without, some say it's a must for any autocrossed Elise (with no LSD). Let me know if my impressions of the front bar are now correct.

Pros of BWR bar:
-less body roll, faster turn in
-dials out some of the oversteer
-reduces possible rear wheel lift

Anyone know diamter of the BWR vs stock bar and also if the stock one is hollow/solid? Is the BWR adjustable and finally can you use the stock endlinks?

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post #116 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surferjer View Post
You should see Brian's bar (I'm fortunate to have one too). It makes all the other bars look like cheap lawn furniture metal.
Ouch. I have to hope you did not mean it to come across that way. My bar does not look like cheap lawn furniture.

Cosmo, stock bar is fixed and hollow and very bendy. You can torque it with your hands.

BWR bar is also hollow, but a thicker wall and uses a series of holes to allow adjustment.

Biggest reason is to reduce inside rear wheel spin on an non-LSD car IMO.

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post #117 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 01:04 PM
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Ouch. I have to hope you did not mean it to come across that way. My bar does not look like cheap lawn furniture.

Cosmo, stock bar is fixed and hollow and very bendy. You can torque it with your hands.

BWR bar is also hollow, but a thicker wall and uses a series of holes to allow adjustment.

Biggest reason is to reduce inside rear wheel spin on an non-LSD car IMO.
Any other options? I'm having a hard time with the price tag, I also own a Miata so you know I'm cheap

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post #118 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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Have one custom made, but it will be more. You just can't make custom stuff for such a small market and make it cheap.

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post #119 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 01:35 PM
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$310.00 for the BWR is not bad. I love mine. I just paid $600.00 for an A/F gauge
and $475.00 for a tiny oil pan. At least the bar adds performance.

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post #120 of 256 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 10:27 AM
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Looks like I found a solution. Now if there was just an affordable shock solution that was adjustable and not 4 grand.

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