The Solo Setup Thread for the Elise in SCCA - Page 9 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #161 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-26-2012, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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True, it may be fine...but what happens locally is not really relevant. You can do totally illegal stuff locally. But that does not change that it is not per the rulebook. You can run different rims. Throw a supercharger on the car. Now is this really not a big deal locally? Sure. Like a different shift knob or taking out your radio. It may not be seen as really enhancing performance locally. But nationally? Yes. Ease of access to the engine is huge.

Keep in mind that the main reason these rules exist is to reduce costs for those that choose to play at the national level with stock cars as they came from the factory. Each allowance that has been given (alternate shocks, exhausts, rims, rubber, etc) becomes a cost point as most drivers want to make sure they are doing everything that they can legally to compete. If I was still running my Elise in SS and they allowed a hinge kit, I would put it on. Would have helped me at Nationals.

R4...it will not be legal. I guarantee it. The aid to the tech workers is not relevant either. I work tech for SCCA at National events.
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post #162 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-26-2012, 03:23 PM
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hey randy!
a clam hinge sure does make things more convenient though

as the rule is currently written, i see a gray area as well. per 13.2.A:
"... and other appearance, comfort and convenience modifications which have no effect on performance and/or handling and do not materially reduce the weight of the car are permitted."

a clam hinge doesn't effect performance or handling, and doesn't materially reduce the weight of the car. i agree that clarification may be required, either through a letter or in the protest trailer. keep in mind i'm not speaking about the BOE hinge - this is something custom, and much less intrusive, not requiring any modification as i understand the BOE piece does.

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post #163 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 06:12 AM
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It adds weight albeit very little. I would claim comfort and convenience but prepare to not be upset if it gets overturned in a protest.


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post #164 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 07:01 AM
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I'd love someone to get clarification. The other problem you will run into in SS is your battery as you can not change the type.
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post #165 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 08:25 AM
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Nationally people have been protested for missing plastic wiring loom in their engine bay and those push in christmas tree fasteners on wheel liners. Your car has to be STOCK except for the allowances made in the rule book. If you finish in 30th place, probably no one will care but if you finisher higher up, prepare to be protested and possibly loose.

If you want to modify your car, run it in the class that allows those modifications.

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post #166 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 07:55 PM
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I appreciate the cost-point rules orientation which is the MAIN reason I want to put it on. By having a tilt, I will be able to better inspect my gear and save on repairs if I keep something from breaking. And every time I take it to the shop, I will save because I won't have to pay the mechanic to remove the entire clam!
Exactly my point. I have yet to hear anyone on these forums say that by opening up the shock rules they were able to save on costs. And I have yet to hear anyone on these forums that put on a clam tilt NOT say that they are saving a ton of money because they put it on!

And it does add weight.
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post #167 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-27-2012, 07:58 PM
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On another matter - clutch recommendations?
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post #168 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 07:07 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by R4Racin View Post
I appreciate the cost-point rules orientation which is the MAIN reason I want to put it on. By having a tilt, I will be able to better inspect my gear and save on repairs if I keep something from breaking. And every time I take it to the shop, I will save because I won't have to pay the mechanic to remove the entire clam!
This is missing my point. It does not matter if it saves you money. If the rest of the competitors also feel that they need to do the same mod as you, each one of them has to spend more. That is the number one reason for the stock class rules.

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Exactly my point. I have yet to hear anyone on these forums say that by opening up the shock rules they were able to save on costs. And I have yet to hear anyone on these forums that put on a clam tilt NOT say that they are saving a ton of money because they put it on!

And it does add weight.
It is a different point. Because stock class supports older cars and certain parts wear out, in the broader scope you are forced to allow certain mods. Because finding a true OE shock from car built in 1980 is impossible. Can you imagine having to use a factory replacement exhaust on a 1990 car?

So for these reasons, you allow the mod. But this immediately opens the door to any PERCEIVED value in a mod... so most competitors in stock class that run nationally will take that brand new car and remove the shocks for double adjustables, replace the brand new exhaust, etc.

The SEB charter to is not upset classes and allow mods that end up costing other people money. And to not allow too many openings in the "if it does not say you can in the rule book, you can't" overall rule.

If they allow a hinged clam now... why not allow that on every car that runs in stock? You think there will be a special Lotus allowance? No way.

Recall... they did not allow the Mazdas to have a 1" hole to access the shock adjustments for aftermarket shocks (note...some people ended up installing aftermarket speakers right over the shocks...comfort and convenience and heavier).

It will not be allowed.

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post #169 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 08:42 AM
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Randy is 100 % right. Sure you can try and you might get away with it (if no one checks) but it is not legal and if you get caught, prepare to get disqualified and possibly be branded a "cheater".

Stock class historically has the most protests as it is very competitive. The modified classes are typically much more laid back.

Locally, your club may not care at all but Nationally, chances are that "someone" will care especially if you do well.

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post #170 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 08:55 AM
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I struggle to see why this could not fit withing the comfort & convenience category. As it truely is a conveniece that offers no performance advantage.

That being said Randy is most likely correct which is why I have not put one on my ASP>SSP Car. That and the cost, if they were in the $300-$400 range I'd be fighting a little more to get them allowed.
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post #171 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 09:10 AM
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I struggle to see why this could not fit withing the comfort & convenience category. As it truely is a conveniece that offers no performance advantage.

That being said Randy is most likely correct which is why I have not put one on my ASP>SSP Car. That and the cost, if they were in the $300-$400 range I'd be fighting a little more to get them allowed.
It offers a huge competitive advantage. You can access your engine bay and suspension much easier than a car that does not have this feature.

A comfort and convenience item cannot have ANY Competitive advantage.

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post #172 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 09:15 AM
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did anybody actually even ready my post above?

as an aside, i'm all too familiar with protests at the national level on a personal level (DS/ITR fiasco in '09). when there's a gray area, that's what letters and protests/appeals are for
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post #173 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 09:24 AM
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did anybody actually even ready my post above?

as an aside, i'm all too familiar with protests at the national level on a personal level (DS/ITR fiasco in '09). when there's a gray area, that's what letters and protests/appeals are for
I read it. These are all open to interpretation but if I was a competitor, I can very easily see that is definitely has a competitive advantage "ie service and adjustability of the car is far quicker". If I had a stock lotus (no clam hinge) and you had one with a clam hinge and we both had a problem or needed an adjustment between runs, you could likely do it and I may not. Is that an advantage, YES.

Comfort an convenience cannot have a competititve advantage or you could be protested and lose.

Installion of the clam hinge also requires holes to be drilled, seals to be cut, foam to be trimmed etc.

Just think, you cannot even slightly enlarge the hole in your diffuser to run a stage II exhaust in stock class. Silly, maybe but the reality is if they allow people to do stuff like that it leads to a slippery slope.

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post #174 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 09:26 AM
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I read it. These are all open to interpretation but if I was a competitor, I can very easily see that is definitely has a competitive advantage "ie service and adjustability of the car is far quicker". If I had a stock lotus (no clam hinge) and you had one with a clam hinge and we both had a problem or needed an adjustment between runs, you could likely do it and I may not. Is that an advantage, YES.

Comfort an convenience cannot have a competititve advantage or you could be protested and lose.

Installion of the clam hinge also requires holes to be drilled, seals to be cut, foam to be trimmed etc.

Just think, you cannot even slightly enlarge the hole in your diffuser to run a stage II exhaust in stock class. Silly, maybe but the reality is if they allow people to do stuff like that it leads to a slippery slope.
it's a matter of semantics - nowhere in 13.2.A does it mention competitive advantage - it mentions performance advantage. two very different things, IMO. so i see one of two outcomes: if the intent is to disallow this kind of modification, the wording needs to be changed. but if this modification is deemed legal, then the wording (and my current interpretation of it) is correct. unfortunately, i too feel that randy is correct, but i'm considering rolling the dice and putting it to the test
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post #175 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 09:58 AM
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it's a matter of semantics - nowhere in 13.2.A does it mention competitive advantage - it mentions performance advantage. two very different things, IMO. so i see one of two outcomes: if the intent is to disallow this kind of modification, the wording needs to be changed. but if this modification is deemed legal, then the wording (and my current interpretation of it) is correct. unfortunately, i too feel that randy is correct, but i'm considering rolling the dice and putting it to the test
It is semantics and it would be up to someone to pony up the bucks to protest you.

With that being said, all the advice the OP received in this thread are true. You could be protested and you could lose depending on your argument and those of the protester. Generally, for stock class, if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't is a good rule of thumb if you don't want to risk a protest.

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post #176 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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You will lose. I would put money on it. Really.

It is a performance advantage. I screwed up at Nationals one year in my SS Elise because I did not have good access between runs when I needed it. Running around, looking for my jack. Jackstands. Wood. All before we had to run again. Nightmare. Just tilt the clam???? Performance advantage.

I had a hard time with the remote reservoirs on my Penske DAs. Tilting clam would ahve made it easier. Performance advantage.

Hot day and I would open my lid to cool things down between runs. Wait... TILT THE ENTIRE CLAM??!?! Performance advantage!

There are probably more. The very fact that anyone here wants to do it, is itself a reason for others to do it. Which increases cost. Note... I had my rear clam on and off more times than anyone except probably Fred Zust. So much it wore off the mounting points on the clam. But it is what it is.

If it does not say you can do it, you can not.

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On another matter - clutch recommendations?
Stock class?
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post #177 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 11:16 AM
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Too much trouble for the joy of standing in a parking lot all day for five min. of driving......after eight years of driving around cones and sorting out the rules I'm going to stick to track days and hill climbs
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post #178 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 05:40 PM
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Too much trouble for the joy of standing in a parking lot all day for five min. of driving......after eight years of driving around cones and sorting out the rules I'm going to stick to track days and hill climbs
The "Track and Technique" forum is right next door. Bye.
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post #179 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-28-2012, 07:20 PM
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Some day I will go back to college and get a law degree, just so I can make sense of the SCCA rules. At this point I am not even sure what class my car would be.

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post #180 of 256 (permalink) Old 02-29-2012, 09:22 AM
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Some day I will go back to college and get a law degree, just so I can make sense of the SCCA rules. At this point I am not even sure what class my car would be.
Don't be discouraged. If you are competing locally, most people really don't care and it is more about fun. When you go to Nationals, people take it a lot more seriously and will enforce the rules completely. The rule book is not that complicated. Basically, if it doesn't say you CAN do it, you can't. Lots of people try to complicate things by figuring out ways to get around the rules and get an advantage of some sort.

It's by far the cheapest and safest form of motorsports racing.

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