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post #21 of 84 (permalink) Old 03-27-2015, 08:37 PM
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I may wait another year. My time is and energy are really booked this year. Next year will be better. I'm thinking, stay light, stay NA.
Well, it's another year, and SSM, here I come. Underprepared, of course. Nothing but steering arms, rear toe beef-up and, of course, Penske DA coilover units.

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post #22 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 01:58 AM
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Well, it's another year, and SSM, here I come. Underprepared, of course. Nothing but steering arms, rear toe beef-up and, of course, Penske DA coilover units.
OK, it's all installed. Soon I will be off to thealignmentguy.com for corner-balance and alignment.

Fred gave me some startup advice on Compression/Rebound.

I'd like to ask you all about camber settings. Where should I start?

Hoping that the combo of slight lowering, Sector steering arms, 550/800 springs and SCCA Solo front bar will allow me to adjust to sufficient camber to not wear out my Hoosiers immediately.

LSS wheels, either 140-treadwear Toyo R1R or Hoosier A6 depending on weather and whim. Never gets over 95 degrees here, and first event may be 50.

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post #23 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 05:05 AM
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Max camber in the front. Since you're in SSM, you can remove your ABS shims too. Try -2.8ish in the rear... or more.
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post #24 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 05:54 AM
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With non-stock springs, the SCCA bar is a bit much in the front. Agree with Glagola 1 on front camber, I think you'll be fighting push because of the bar AND if you don't have shaved steering arms. It would be worth getting them milled down 5mm to get goodly camber up front.


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post #25 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 06:22 AM
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I'm not sure Fred. I ran 225/245 Hoosiers in 2013 and with the SCCA bar and 550/800 springs, the car was loose. Then I installed 625 front springs and it was better. Then I toed the rear in to over 1/2" and it was pretty good. Then I installed a wing and it was better yet... then I went to softer springs and it was much better.

At the beginning of 2014, I started using 275 front and rear but kept the softer springs (450/650). Ran the car that way all year. It worked out ok.

This year, I installed uprights so I have no choice but to run 550/800 because the car is so low. I think with the raised front roll center and with -3.1* on all corners, the car is about perfect. I'm still running tons of rear toe in though.. and the big front bar (which might be binding in the mounts because I don't notice any real difference between drop link positions). If anything, my car is currently a hair loose.

YMMV.. and all that.
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post #26 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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I'm still trying to figure out what to do on alignment. I'm probably going to start with something like Glagola's setup (or exactly it). On street tires (RS3V2s on 17x9s and 15x8s) last year, I ran 2.7 front camber, 2.3 rear camber, with the non-hardcore bar I think on the middle setting. The car was a little loose, but I mostly dialed it out with shocks. It turned in whenever I wanted, and you could drive with the rear as desired, even with the underpowered motor (was making ~20 ft/lbs less than stock torque for some reason).

I'm probably going to bump up to ~3.1 front camber now, with somewhere between 2.8 and 3.1 rear camber, and try less toe out in the rear than you have. Worst case Crow's gets really exciting and I stiffen the bar and loosen up the rear shocks to compensate, then fix it later.

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post #27 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 10:59 AM
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Let me clarify that none of the set ups I drove on were actually BAD. They've just been fine tuned.
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post #28 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 04:43 PM
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Max camber in the front. Since you're in SSM, you can remove your ABS shims too. Try -2.8ish in the rear... or more.
Find a different way to locate the ABS sensor?

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post #29 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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Zip ties are your friend. Sensor stays, just need to zip tie the wire to the upper A arm.

David de Regt - Bellevue, WA
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post #30 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 04:45 PM
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With non-stock springs, the SCCA bar is a bit much in the front. Agree with Glagola 1 on front camber, I think you'll be fighting push because of the bar AND if you don't have shaved steering arms. It would be worth getting them milled down 5mm to get goodly camber up front.
I do have the trick steering arms from S111, so I effectively have shaved steering arms.

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1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
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post #31 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
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With the stock uprights and V2Arms and lowered by about 25mm, and all the shims removed, I was only able to get -2.7/-2.5 out of the fronts.

David de Regt - Bellevue, WA
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post #32 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 04:51 PM
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With the stock uprights and V2Arms and lowered by about 25mm, and all the shims removed, I was only able to get -2.7/-2.5 out of the fronts.
Including taking out the ABS mount?

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1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
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post #33 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-03-2015, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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Including taking out the ABS mount?
That's a shim. ;-)

(yes)

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post #34 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-04-2015, 06:58 AM
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I'm not sure Fred. I ran 225/245 Hoosiers in 2013 and with the SCCA bar and 550/800 springs, the car was loose. Then I installed 625 front springs and it was better. Then I toed the rear in to over 1/2" and it was pretty good. Then I installed a wing and it was better yet... then I went to softer springs and it was much better.

At the beginning of 2014, I started using 275 front and rear but kept the softer springs (450/650). Ran the car that way all year. It worked out ok.

This year, I installed uprights so I have no choice but to run 550/800 because the car is so low. I think with the raised front roll center and with -3.1* on all corners, the car is about perfect. I'm still running tons of rear toe in though.. and the big front bar (which might be binding in the mounts because I don't notice any real difference between drop link positions). If anything, my car is currently a hair loose.

YMMV.. and all that.
If you have stock wheel sizes, stock front camber, 550/800, and the SCCA Bar, the car will push. Period. Now it is quite possible to get push induced oversteer, i.e. the car has initial push then with additional steering input it can flip to oversteer. That's a tough one for most folks to identify since it seems like oversteer.

The big difference is the extra camber in the front. That creates a huge improvement in front grip regardless of tire size.

Glagola1, now that you are running a square 275 Hoosier on wide wheels, uprights, and lots of front camber, I am not surprised you are fighting looseness, but this is pretty far from where the OP is starting.


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post #35 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-05-2015, 08:48 PM
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Zip ties are your friend. Sensor stays, just need to zip tie the wire to the upper A arm.
After the relatives left, I yanked the sensor brackets.

The sensor bracket is .040 (1mm) thick, which seems to be worth about a quarter of a degree.

I sat and stared at the setup for a while. Then I put a 1/4-twist in each bracket and zip-tied it to the the upright in nearly the same position (just a bit higher) than stock.

Here are pix: Note there are no shims between the upright and the Sector steering arms.

I have not had the wheels back on yet.

While there, I took all the three shims out that were in the right rear. I left the three in the left rear. I intend to get the wheels back on, drop the car, and see where all the camber is.

This may take a while. Triumph club business is going to take priority for part of this week.


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1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2017 Ford Fusion (wife had to stop driving manual due to shoulder problem), Oxford White
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post #36 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 08:36 PM
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Just came back from Ashland Wisconsin where I was laying the groundwork for the the autocross at The Rendezvous in June. Just got the approval from the aeronautics board to use the airport. Yes!

Well, so much for the Triumph world, back to sorting the Elise for SSM:

Picked up the "partner" scales this morning. Plopped them on top of the tiles I laid out for the preliminary camber check. Checked them with the 8-foot level and they are OK. Found that I can put the level on top of the scales and use it to measure ride height with a small metric rule.

Got the ride height around 120/123, which was a good deal lower than the thumbnail starting points on the Penske DAs. Started zeroing on on the weights with the car empty. This is just a starting point, as thealighnmentguy.com will do the final balance and toe adjustments on Tuesday.

Just for laughs, I played around to see how close I could get the corners.

LF 379 RF 376

LR 597 RR 597

This is empty car with a full tank of gasoline. 1949 pounds total.

Cross weight of 3 pounds. I'm not kidding myself that my setup is accurate, but it was fun anyway.

I left the car where it is, and will measure the camber again tomorrow. When I measured it as 2.4 degrees in the front and 2.6 degrees in back, I had not checked the ride height yet. With the car a bit lower, I may have picked up some camber.

The rear toe may be close, I have no idea where the front toe is, what with new steering arms.



Looks like my minimum weight for the class is 1804.1 (thanks, codingparadox!) pounds. I don't think I need worry about weight protests...

Phil Ethier Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2017 Ford Fusion (wife had to stop driving manual due to shoulder problem), Oxford White
2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C on Chev Kodiak chassis
http://www.mnautox.com

Last edited by philethier; 04-11-2015 at 05:42 AM.
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post #37 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 11:48 PM Thread Starter
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Just came back from Ashland Wisconsin where I was laying the groundwork for the the autocross at The Rendezvous in June. Just got the approval from the aeronautics board to use the airport. Yes!

Well, so much for the Triumph world, back to sorting the Elise for SSM:

Picked up the "partner" scales this morning. Plopped them on top of the tiles I laid out for the preliminary camber check. Checked them with the 8-foot level and they are OK. Found that I can put the level on top of the scales and use it to measure ride height with a small metric rule.

Got the ride height around 120/123, which was a good deal lower than the thumbnail starting points on the Penske DAs. Started zeroing on on the weights with the car empty. This is just a starting point, as thealighnmentguy.com will do the final balance and toe adjustments on Tuesday.

Just for laughs, I played around to see how close I could get the corners.

LF 379 RF 376

LR 597 RR 597

This is empty car with a full tank of gasoline. 1949 pounds total.

Cross weight of 3 pounds. I'm not kidding myself that my setup is accurate, but it was fun anyway.

I left the car where it is, and will measure the camber again tomorrow. When I measured it as 2.4 degrees in the front and 2.6 degrees in back, I had not checked the ride height yet. With the car a bit lower, I may have picked up some camber.

The rear toe may be close, I have no idea where the front toe is, what with new steering arms.



Looks like my minimum weight for the class is 1669.4 pounds. I don't think I need worry about weight protests...
Where did you get 1669.4 pounds from? A stock 1.8 in the Elise is 1805 by my calc (1600 + 1.8*(200 + 25) - 200 (assuming <= 275 tires)) = 1805.

David de Regt - Bellevue, WA
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post #38 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 05:36 AM
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Where did you get 1669.4 pounds from? A stock 1.8 in the Elise is 1805 by my calc (1600 + 1.8*(200 + 25) - 200 (assuming <= 275 tires)) = 1805.
Crap. Clerical error. Read the wrong line in the rule book when I went back to calculate. So an Elise is NOT FWD?

1600+(200*1.796)=1959.2

Rear weght bias 25 * 1.796 = 44.9

Tiny tires is -200

1804.1

So I am still way OK.

So if I had big tires and a supercharger, I'd have to add 370 pounds of ballast to get to 2319.1? That's not the car I want to have. One of the main reasons I didn't keep my Europa was that I didn't want to bolt hundreds pounds to it for XP. Lightness was most of that the Europa had going for it.

============

Super Street Modified Class (SSM)
Eligible Vehicles:
All two-seat cars not excluded below.
All SM eligible sedans/coupes excluded from SM.
All SM eligible vehicles.
Excluded Vehicles:
Lotus (all except Elise, Exige, & Esprit)
Vehicles not meeting minimum weights
Minimum Weight Calculations (without driver):
FWD: 1350 lbs. + 125 lbs. per liter
RWD: 1600 lbs. + 200 lbs. per liter
AWD: 1600 lbs. + 300 lbs. per liter
Supercharged or Turbocharged SSM engines: Add 1.4L to the actual
displacement.
Rear wheel weight greater than 51%: +25 lbs. per liter
Tire width 275 mm or less (all): -200 lbs.
Regardless of the weight formulas above, no car will be required to
weigh more than 2900 lbs.

Phil Ethier Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2017 Ford Fusion (wife had to stop driving manual due to shoulder problem), Oxford White
2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C on Chev Kodiak chassis
http://www.mnautox.com

Last edited by philethier; 04-11-2015 at 11:36 AM.
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post #39 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
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No, it's actually more.

Small tires + SC = 1600 + (1.8 + 1.4) * (200 + 25) - 200 = 2120
+ Big tires = 2320

That's why I'm sticking with small tires -- only have to add a little over a hundred pounds of ballast, which is already a lot.

David de Regt - Bellevue, WA
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post #40 of 84 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 11:33 AM
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No, it's actually more.

Small tires + SC = 1600 + (1.8 + 1.4) * (200 + 25) - 200 = 2120
+ Big tires = 2320

That's why I'm sticking with small tires -- only have to add a little over a hundred pounds of ballast, which is already a lot.
Yup. 2319.1 . Skipped a step.

Phil Ethier Minnesota USA
1973 Triumph Stag LE22439UBW "uncle jack", Sapphire Blue
2004 Suburban 8.1, Sport Red
2005 Lotus Elise, Bordeaux Red Pearl
2017 Ford Fusion (wife had to stop driving manual due to shoulder problem), Oxford White
2006 Gulf Stream Conquest Super C on Chev Kodiak chassis
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