|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|05-29-2019 11:27 AM|
|lt1_fd3s||I saw one of the new GR Supras in Charlotte at the Toyota booth before the All-Star race... and well, after seeing the smaller size, I can say I don't hate it as much as I did... and actually kinda like it after seeing it in person|
|05-29-2019 10:58 AM|
Saw the new Z4 in person and think it looks a lot better than the previous generation!! I actually looked twice!!
BMW has been padding their numbers for years to make them look like they are more efficient at putting the power down...fact is I've seen many 25-50hp underrated BMW motors. An interesting reverse take on German superior engineering.
|05-22-2019 05:11 PM|
The 2020 Toyota Supra Makes More Power Than Toyota Claims
Dyno pulls reveal that the Supra's BMW-sourced turbo-six overdelivers on its power rating.
Usually when we catch an automaker fibbing, it doesn't bode well for the company. But for the second time in a month, Car and Driver has discovered that a manufacturer is understating the power delivered by one of its hottest cars.
In our recent test, the 2020 Toyota Supra hurried from zero to 60 mph in 3.8 seconds and crushed the quarter-mile in 12.3 seconds at 113 mph. The fact that it outperforms more powerful coupes such as the BMW M2 Competition and nudges into the BMW M4's territory got us thinking: Might the Supra's BMW-sourced turbocharged 3.0-liter inline-six be underrated in a similar way to the twin-turbo V-8 in the BMW M5 Competition, which just tried to spin the wheels off the dyno?
After lashing down Toyota’s new sports car, we discovered that, even with the power-sapping driveline losses of its transmission and rear axle, the Supra puts down 339 horsepower and 427 lb-ft of torque at the wheels. That’s slightly better than the 335 horses Toyota said the car would produce at the crank and a considerable jump from the 365 lb-ft the company promised. While modern drivetrains have become highly efficient at transferring power, the extra power that the Supra is putting to the ground helps explain its impressive accelerative ability.
For our test, we headed to Livernois Motorsports and Engineering in Dearborn Heights, Michigan. We strapped the Supra to the Dynojet all-wheel-drive dynamometer, as the car's stability systems only play nice when all four wheels are spinning. For this observation, we ran the test in the eight-speed automatic transmission's fifth-gear ratio of 1.32:1 to achieve a full sweep of the tachometer. We experimented with the 1.00:1 ratio of sixth gear but were unable to reach the engine's redline. The power output in sixth gear, however, matched our results of those in the higher gear.
Reviewing the results, we think there's a chance the peak torque output may be slightly inflated, as the transmission's torque converter likely isn’t fully locked until higher in the rev range. Nevertheless, this engine produces more thrust than advertised, which further explains the Supra's rousing acceleration.
Video too @
|05-16-2019 09:58 AM|
Here's How Our 2020 Toyota Supra Test Numbers Compare to the 1993 Supra Turbo's
We strapped our test gear to the all-new Supra to find out how it compares to the iconic fourth-gen model.
The new Toyota Supra is undoubtedly one of the most anticipated cars of this decade—and the decade before, honestly—and this week we were finally able to see if it lives up to the hype during the first-drive event at the Summit Point Motorsports Park track in West Virginia. Spoiler alert: It does. The new Supra is the kind of sports car we were hoping it would be, and it's the best driver's car the brand has ever made.
We didn't want to just stop there, though, so we brought a Supra back to our Ann Arbor, Michigan, office to subject it to our full instrumented testing. And because we know our audience (and because we were interested, too), we decided to compare the new A90 Supra's numbers to those of a Supra Turbo that we tested in 1993, the first year of the fourth-generation A80 model. We won't make any judgments about which car is actually better without driving them back to back, but you'd all be armchair racing with these numbers anyway, right?
But before we get to the test numbers, we're gonna drone on about specs for a minute. The 2020 Supra bucks the modern trend of every new generation of a car being bigger and heavier than the last. At 172.5 inches long, the new Supra is 5.2 inches shorter than the fourth-gen car and its 97.2-inch wheelbase is 3.2 inches shorter; the new one also is 1.7 inches wider and 0.7 inch taller. The new Supra has the old one beat in terms of weight, too. That 1993 Turbo was 3480 pounds, while the new car weighed in at 3372 pounds—a 108-pound difference. The Mark IV Supra was a two-plus-two, with a small set of seats behind the driver and passenger, but the new Supra is strictly a two-seater; they both have a 10-cubic-foot cargo area accessed by a hatchback.
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Both Supras are rear-wheel drive and use 3.0-liter inline-six engines fed by forced induction, but that's where the similarities start to end. As it was developed in partnership with BMW, the new Supra uses a BMW-sourced six with a single turbo, mated only to an eight-speed automatic transmission. The fourth-gen Supra Turbo had a Toyota-developed twin-turbo six that could be paired either with a six-speed manual or a four-speed automatic. (Base models used a naturally aspirated version of the six with a five-speed manual or four-speed auto.) Actual horsepower and torque numbers haven't changed much in the two-and-a-half decades between generations, with the 1993 car making 320 horsepower and 315 lb-ft and the 2020 model producing 335 horsepower and 365 lb-ft.
Okay, now we'll get to what you really care about. In its day, the Mark IV Supra was quick as hell. The manual-equipped Turbo model that we tested in 1993 hit 60 mph in 4.6 seconds and went through the quarter-mile in 13.1 seconds at 109 mph. In a 1993 six-car comparison test, which it won, we described the Supra Turbo as "a rocket car" that pulled like a train. The 2020 Supra destroys the old car, though, with a 3.8-second zero-to-60-mph time and a quarter-mile dispatched in 12.3 seconds at 113 mph. The A80's 11.1-second zero-to-100-mph and 19.9-second zero-to-130 runs were similarly beaten; the new car posted times of 9.5 seconds to 100 mph and 17.4 seconds to 130.
The new Supra is also way quicker in passing times, but that's to be expected given the transmission differences. The A90's 5-to-60-mph rolling start time of 4.6 seconds is 1.3 seconds quicker than the A80's, but the real improvement comes in the 30-to-50 and 50-to-70 acceleration runs, which are started in top gear (most automatics will downshift, while manual cars remain in top gear). At 2.5 seconds from 30 to 50 mph and 2.8 seconds from 50 to 70 mph, the new Supra crushes the old car, which recorded times of 13.1 seconds and 8.1 seconds, respectively, in the same tests.
There is one category where the Mark IV should have the new car beat: top speed. Toyota says the new Supra is limited to 155 mph, while the 1993 car was able to hit 160 mph in our hands. But in our testing, the new car exceeded the limiter, still pulling past the 160 mark. We estimate its real top speed to be around 162 mph.
Grip has greatly improved, too. The A80 Turbo had 17-inch wheels wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE020 tires, sized 235/45 in front and 255/40 in the rear, while the A90 uses 19-inch wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires, sized 255/35 in front and 275/35 in back. On our skidpad, the old car pulled 0.95 g, which was in the realm of (or better than) many higher-end sports cars at the time. But in the new car we recorded an excellent 1.07 g, nearly matching a Porsche 911 GT3.
The new Supra also has bigger brakes, using 13.7-inch vented discs in front and 13.6-inch vented discs in the rear, 1.0 inch and 0.8 inch larger than the old car (which also had vented discs). With a 160-foot stopping distance from 70 mph, the 1993 Supra would still be respectable today. But the 2020 Supra stopped in 148 feet, again putting it in the league of more hard-core modern machinery.
So that's how the two Supras compare on paper, at least in numbers. Sure, it might not be surprising that the new one is better in basically every measurable way—but it kind of had to be, right? Supra fans aren't exactly tame and easy to please.
There are two obvious ways the fourth-gen car is better in our eyes, though: It had that massive optional wing and an optional targa roof. The new Supra doesn't have either of those things. So we guess it's a tie, then.
Not near a tie, of course.
When I removed the roof panel, the car flexed a remarkable amount. I just left it in after that, even on the highway.
We gained ~100 hp with aquarium supplies. Good story if you want to know....
|02-14-2019 05:01 PM|
Toyota began as the brand that Toyoda Automatic Loom Works, Ltd sold cars under. Toyoda looms were, and still are (my undergrad degree is actually in textiles), known for being consistently reliable and economical over a decades-long service life.
It's not surprising that an industrial equipment manufacturing company would focus on building stout, reliable cars. Their early adoption of Deming's quality management philosophy pushed them further along the path to building what we now associate with Toyotas.
It was always a difficult fit with performance, though - not quite opposite to the Colin Chapman philosophy, but there's a long, long list of unkillable Toyota engines with inferior specific output to contemporary Honda or BMW engines for example - I have one in my '92 Celica (S engine), had another in a '94 Corolla (A engine), and another in the '76 Land Cruiser (F engine). They're not sprightly, but they won't leave you by the side of the road unless you really, really deserve it.
That durability also often means there's some tuning reserve in there, if you're clever enough to get it out.
All of that said, if you've ever read this article, you'll know why I was never seduced by an M car. Lovely to own...until the warranty ran out. See also the S class Audis, which also manage to cause me to wonder 'what were they thinking?' sometimes.
I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Toyota derate relative to the BMW variant is specifically because that's the magic number for 300,000 KM reliability. That's the Toyota way, whether it's a limited production super GT or a pickup truck.
Besides, they know that the tuners who are willing to will happily get that 50 BHP, and probably a good bit more back the instant the car touches pavement anyway.
|02-14-2019 03:31 PM|
Originally Posted by TedR View Post
|02-14-2019 11:06 AM|
I found this to be a really fascinating video from a manufacturer design standpoint. Basically, Toyota sees BMW's design process as front analysis heavy and validation light. This explains, to me at least, why Japanese cars are great in the long term and German cars always seem to have some fundamental weakness that only shows up over time. It's likely that the new engine in the Supra and Z4 (and M3/4) will be the most reliable BMW engine in the line up thanks to Toyota!
|02-11-2019 06:36 PM|
The center console control area
|02-11-2019 08:17 AM|
Originally Posted by XHILR8N! View Post
|02-11-2019 08:11 AM|
Basic manual controls just forward of the very nice volume knob. It’s as solid as I have ever felt on even a high end sound system. But there are two knurled rolling swithches that work to change stations on radio as well as satellite.
I think there are some on the steering wheel too.
The touch pad is a bit more “touchy” to operate, but it can be done to change whatever, search, adjust sound position and basic equalizer. While moving!
|02-11-2019 07:48 AM|
Originally Posted by XHILR8N! View Post
|01-30-2019 08:15 AM|
|3carmonte||James May likes this car. I wonder why?|
|01-30-2019 07:59 AM|
I am more disappointed every time I see this car. I wonder what their sales targets are. I doubt they will hit them.
|01-29-2019 01:18 PM|
I was able to drop by the 2019 NAIAS to take a look at the new Supra in person and took a few photos. I'm still not sure how I feel about it - Toyota's product reps were pretty adamant that this was the right car for their target market (e.g. not the 20-year-olds who complain loudly on the internet but are unlikely to have the financial ability to buy the car). I can't help but be a little surprised by how narrow the body looks - it really doesn't inspire that "wow this thing is wide like a race car" reaction. I am also more than a little surprised by how pedestrian the brakes look on what is supposed to be a relatively high-dollar sports car. For like $60k, should they have something that looks better than painted-over sedan calipers?
|01-20-2019 01:11 AM|
I didn't like the FF1 concept and I like the Supra even less. The front looks like a crushed blobfish and a nautilus had a love child. The rear looks like they can't decide if they wanted to copy the 65 Daytona Coupe or the 2nd gen Z4 so they took both and botched it up with a putty knife.
Then they have a detuned V6... with no manual, all for $53k plus the mandatory $10k dealer markeup for the first year. Why bother?
|01-19-2019 07:46 AM|
Originally Posted by oldmansan View Post
|01-18-2019 09:21 PM|
|01-18-2019 08:12 PM|
Originally Posted by Kevin Murrell View Post
|01-18-2019 08:11 PM|
I personally wasn't interested, too big and heavy. I'm more of an FD and M2 MR2 fan, but when the Supra came out, it was impressive.
People don't realize, but the Supra was never really a sports car. It started out as a stretched, pumped up, and optioned out Celica and they just got heavier and heavier. It wasn't until the 4th gen that they set out to make a sporting car (it was actually delayed a couple years because the original 4th gen was not going to be compeditive with the Z, 3000GT, and Rx-7) but it was always a GT.
|01-18-2019 06:51 PM|
With a different front bumper, and a little lower i think it isn't bad.
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